CCSVI, cause or symptom?

[Cece]

Our stubborn veins seem to like to recreate the condition of CCSVI all on their own, through elastic recoil, returning to the positions that they are used to.

Or are there actual outside (physical) influences that cause the initial occurance and reoccurance rather than congenital deformation and elastic recoil post treatment?

I used the word 'veins' but it is really intraluminal abnormalities (within the lumen of the vein, inside the vein). It would be easier to imagine an outward force shaping the veins but less easy to imagine an outward force shaping the intraluminal abnormalities within the veins. But I was trying to restate what I was hearing from you when I said this:

If CCSVI is not congenital, then there would possibly be ongoing conditions that would recreate the condition of CCSVI.

If CCSVI were not congenital, then it would be important to deal with whatever other factors were causing CCSVI, lest they continue causing CCSVI.

I don't agree with it, but I can see the logic.

[EJC]

Here is my (non medical) thought process.

The closest (most common) understand of the treatment of veins that we have is that of varicose viens. Here is a breif laymans terms explanation of they occur:-

Veins have leaflet valves to prevent blood from flowing backwards (retrograde). Leg muscles pump the veins to return blood to the heart, against the effects of gravity. When veins become varicose, the leaflets of the valves no longer meet properly, and the valves do not work.

Of course IJV's and other viens around the neck/chest area are not actively "pumping" blood anywhere, they rely on gravity right? Or do they?

The veins of the leg are going to need more "force" (muscular help) to move the blood all the way back up from where it is, against gravity, so the muscles are going to work that much harder.

What if the venous systems of the neck and upper torso are "helped" by a similar muscle action to move the blood around. Think of it more as a muscle massage of the vien just to keep things moving nicely rather then the "pumping" in the leg veins.

Consider what would happen if the muscles in that particular area were disabled, or damaged, by say a whiplash injury, fall or event to the upper cervical spine.

These muscles may not even need to "pump" anything, they may simply be "massaging" the viens to aid bloodflow and keep the valves fit and operational.

I'm suggesting the intraluminal abnormalities and valve malformations are actually a form of atrophy and CCSVI is the symptom of this atrophy.

[blossom]

hi ejc, i agree with your thinking.

in 2004 i had read of osb helping ms symptoms. even sent and got info. for personal reasons i did not pursue. i could kick myself now. but, i do have other cervical issues too and some of us may have to multi-task.

bad blood flow or bad csf flow for whatever reason is not good. let alone what a misaligned jaw or spine would have on this. plus screwing with the nerves.

[Cece]

I'm suggesting the intraluminal abnormalities and valve malformations are actually a form of atrophy and CCSVI is the symptom of this atrophy.

Atrophy is to wither away. In CCSVI, the valves aren't withered, they are thickened.
When standing, the jugulars are only carrying a tenth or so of their usual flow, and the blood is instead going down the vertebral plexus and vertebral veins. Lying down is when the jugulars would be in use. I don't think anyone's neck muscles are particularly active when lying down, or asleep. Nor is gravity aiding at the time, but at least it is neutral, unlike the leg veins working against gravity.
There is also the thoracic pump which creates pressure that assists with venous return. I don't fully understand the thoracic pump but it negates the need for the neck muscles to be playing a role in moving blood flow forward, if the thoracic pump and the heart have that covered.
More light reading: http://www.coherence.com/thoracic_pump.htm

[EJC]

I didn't expalin myself particularly well. I'll try again. These are all questions I'm asking for actual medical feedback on from someone who understands.

I wasn't suggesting the viens were subject to atrophy, I was suggesting the muscles in and around the viens were suffering from atrophy, due to injury, accident, neck issues, jaw misalignment *enter your symptom here*

Unlike the leg veins the IJV's don't require "pumping" directly using muscles, but I have a theory that the ijv's are "helped" by muscles to a much smaller degree than they would be in say, they legs.

Lets say these muscles "massage" the ijv, particularly during the periods we're stood upright and the ijv's are at 10% capacity. The idea of this "massage" or "stimulation" is to keep all the valves mobile and the vien clear and open whilst not really being used. If this stopped it wouldn't be completely illogical that intraluminal abnormalities start to form.

These neck muscles wouldn't be operating during periods of inactivity when lying down - but during the period of time we're stood or sat upright, they would be helping ijv's to retain effeicency during the periods of time they are not under load (the 16hrs out of every 24hrs that we aren't laying down).

[MrSuccess]

pumps create FLOW ..... resistance to flow ..... causes PRESSURE.

The human heart is a FLUID PUMP ..... the faster it pumps ..... the greater the volume of fluid it will move.

no need to pump any fluid downhill ....

the KEY WORD here is ..... - resistance - ......



MrSuccess

[EJC]

no need to pump any fluid downhill ....

Not unless you need to move more fluid than gravity dictates or a width restriction in the vessel allows.

[MarkW]

There is insufficient data available to give a definite answer. It is a personal choice if you have the symptom of extracranial venous stenoses treated or not. I did just that twice and am glad I did. I understand I had symptoms treated and realise it will probably be many years before your question can be definitely answered.
MarkW

[MrSuccess]

...... if you have a width restriction ......... herein lies the problem .......

I think you're getting it old man .......




MrSuccess

[EJC]

There is insufficient data available to give a definite answer. It is a personal choice if you have the symptom of extracranial venous stenoses treated or not. I did just that twice and am glad I did. I understand I had symptoms treated and realise it will probably be many years before your question can be definitely answered.
MarkW

Yup, Emma chose to have treatment and was one of the growing number of people who had initial great results only to see them fade away.

It's why we've decided to go down another route, however that other route is creating questions in my mind that I can't answer.

I'm using this forum to share those questions and get feedback.

I've seen many things that are leading me to belive that CCSVI is a symptom, I'm trying to understand what could happen to casue that, throwing some theories around whilst I'm at it.

I'm not medically trained in any way shape or form and sometimes I think it helps that my thought process is not restricted to what medicine currently understands. Sometimes an oddball whacky idea sends someone off on a thought process that ends up with a lifechanging medical advancement. Helicobacter pylori springs to mind on this front, Dr's Marshall and Warren were considered complete fruitcakes for their theories, which eventually lead to a Nobel prize.

[EJC]

...... if you have a width restriction ......... herein lies the problem .......

I think you're getting it old man .......




MrSuccess

What cuases the width restriction is what I'm interested in, we know there are restrictions, what we don't is why they arrive. I just don't buy the congential argument. I think there is outside cause, be it muscular or nerve related.

[THEGREEKFROMTHED]

Blood flow. Ebv. Heavy metals. Lipids. Gray matter. White matter. Inside out. Outside in. Kale. Jaws. Atlas. Stress. Fear. Valves. Veins. Vitamin d. Genetics. Is there another disease with more theories and less answers?! Truth is we dont know shinola.

[blossom]

ejc, found this when checking out osb.

Oral System Biology is a performance enhancing process thru optimization of oral function.

Consider a head weighs roughly ten or eleven pounds. To compensate for an imbalance in oral function (extractions, crowding, etc.) The head moves forward and the tight muscles holding the forward head position begin to throb. It's possible that balancing oral function can make a big difference in how that neck feels. The imbalance has been removed and the muscles are no longer called on to compensate in such an uncomfortable fashion

maybe dr. amir discussed this already and i missed it.

[Amir]

ejc, found this when checking out osb.

Oral System Biology is a performance enhancing process thru optimization of oral function.

Consider a head weighs roughly ten or eleven pounds. To compensate for an imbalance in oral function (extractions, crowding, etc.) The head moves forward and the tight muscles holding the forward head position begin to throb. It's possible that balancing oral function can make a big difference in how that neck feels. The imbalance has been removed and the muscles are no longer called on to compensate in such an uncomfortable fashion

maybe dr. amir discussed this already and i missed it.

Blossom
You are on the right track. I answered this question before and am repeating it here.

"Moving on from the hips to the head and neck and trying to answer your question please visualise the following:
I want you to imagine a perfectly shaped head for example that belonging to one of the great athletes like Usain Bolt or Mark Spitzer (a swimming legend). If such a head was balanced on a spike it would have to sit on a certain place on the spike to balance. If we now go and extract just one small tooth out of the patients mouth that head is not going to balance anymore and will need to be repositioned on the spike.

In life it is not a spike but our neck vertebrae which support the head. These vertebrae will have to compensate to balance the head. They compensate by realigning as best as they can. In other words they rotate and distort. Since the damage to the mouth is permanent they have to remain distorted permanently often affecting the nerves that emanate from the spine.

The body is built to gain symmetry all the time. The brain and other reflex mechanisms built into our neurology do not like the vertebral misalignment and contract various muscles to straighten the vertebrae and the head. Since the damage is permanent the messages to the muscles to contract are permanent. Fatigue and pain sets in. Over a long period the discs bulge, spurs grow and a whole host of problems like chronic neck pain and a frozen shoulder etc. develop.

The Atlas vertebrae appears to be misaligned in a majority of patients and its asymmetry appears to also depend/cause the asymmetry of the teeth and jaws. In other words they are interdependent. Correcting the teeth helps correct the Atlas and correcting the Atlas improves the jaw. The required change in the jaw is often much greater and needs long term treatment while the Atlas is corrected in one short visit.

Damage to the jaws are not from a single tooth extraction. It can be from a number of teeth extracted for various reasons which causes far bigger distortions of the neck.

Poor development of the jaws due to dietry effects and genetically missing teeth also eventually cause serious health issues. Please read the article on the Atlas in EJC's other blog

The treatment required is not to the neck which is showing secondary changes but to the mouth to improve matters as Blossom mentions".

The only problem is that just adding the missing weight does not suffice. The damage ends up taking down a lot more with it.

[EJC]

Thanks Amir, explained in far clearer way than I managed.

All I need to find now is someone who can expalin what action (if any) the muscles in the neck area have on the venous system.