Dirty Medicine

[NHE]

I might disagree with you on # 27 especially after reading the following two books...

Overdosed America: The Broken Promise of American Medicine by Dr. John Abramson.
http://www.overdosedamerica.com/

Selling Sickness by Ray Moynihan and Alan Cassels.
http://www.thisisms.com/forum/reading-n ... c2131.html

ok; perhaps fosamax isn't the greatest example, but do you care to explain your position? The two links don't mention fosamax.

If you want specifics, then you should really read the books. The bisphosphonates inhibit osteoclasts and not osteoblasts. The activity of both cells is required for healthy bone remodeling. The denser bone laid down by osteoblasts in the absence of osteoclast activity is not healthy bone. Osteoclast activity is required so that bone can have a proper blood supply. The marketing of the drugs is also pretty sleazy. The pharmas developed bone density scanners of questionable accuracy and sold those in order to sell prescriptions for their new drugs. Moreover, the side effects of the drug can be quite severe and the half-life of a single dose is estimated to exceed 10 years.

[want2bike]

All drugs are toxic to the body. Drug companies know this but they want to make money. The body needs things like vitamins and minerals in the most natural form. The drugs are not vitamins or minerals. When you put chemicals in your body the body will have to get rid of them. They can make you feel better just like cocaine will make you feel better but they are not good for the body. MS drugs work by weakening the immune system and that stops the immune system from attacking the body. You may get temporary relief but your body has to get rid of the chemicals. Some people react to the MS drugs immediately and stop taking them. Some people take these drugs for years and then discover they have a liver disease, a heart attack or they die. The drug companies are not proud of this and they do everything they can to keep this quiet. There are many post by real people who have experienced adverse effects of the drugs but the drug makes me feel good so I will keep taking it. Like when you go to the dentist and he puts mercury in your mouth. I feel good so I go back for more. There will come a point in time that your body will not be able to handle the amount of mercury these criminals have put in your mouth. Your immune system is the doctor within each of us and it is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Attack foreign invaders of the body. These foreign invaders are chemical, heavy metals, viruses and bacteria. Better to get rid of these toxins so the body will stop attacking them. Don't destroy your immune system by taking the drugs. Make your body as healthy as you can and let the immune system do it's job. Now there is the additional problem is whether the drug is being made correctly and the FDA seems to have lost control of this.

[HarryZ]

Your immune system is the doctor within each of us and it is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Attack foreign invaders of the body. These foreign invaders are chemical, heavy metals, viruses and bacteria.

So what happens when a virus or bacteria overruns the immune system and starts destroying everything in sight? And I'm not talking about a simple cold virus or small cut infection but something like rabies or flesh eating disease.

[want2bike]

Doctors are good for certain things like when you break a bone. If you have an acute illness such as bacteria or rabies they might be appropriate. Get the information and make your own choice. For chronic disease they are useless and contribute to illness. I am sure everyone understands that antibiotics are becoming useless because they have been over used. They use more antibiotics on animals than they do on people. When you eat meat there is a good chance you are eating antibiotics. Maybe that is why the bacteria are developing an immunity. When I have bacterial infection or a virus the first thing I try is oregano oil, essential oils, colloidal silver and vitamin D. Since I have been following a healthy lifestyle I seldom get sick. So far that treatment has worked for me and the only need I have for a doctor is to get my blood tested. If you want to play around with the drugs you should be aware of the consequences. Here is a video explaining our medical system. Why would anyone believe anything they have to say. History shows it is all about the money with these jokers. I am giving you the information so you do with it what you want. I hate to see anyone sick and the MS drugs are a lie put out there by the drug companies. You keep putting toxic drugs in your body eventual you will have to pay the price.

[HarryZ]

Doctors are good for certain things like when you break a bone. If you have an acute illness such as bacteria or rabies they might be appropriate. Get the information and make your own choice. For chronic disease they are useless and contribute to illness. I am sure everyone understands that antibiotics are becoming useless because they have been over used. They use more antibiotics on animals than they do on people. When you eat meat there is a good chance you are eating antibiotics. Maybe that is why the bacteria are developing an immunity. When I have bacterial infection or a virus the first thing I try is oregano oil, essential oils, colloidal silver and vitamin D. Since I have been following a healthy lifestyle I seldom get sick. So far that treatment has worked for me and the only need I have for a doctor is to get my blood tested. If you want to play around with the drugs you should be aware of the consequences. Here is a video explaining our medical system. Why would anyone believe anything they have to say. History shows it is all about the money with these jokers. I am giving you the information so you do with it what you want. I hate to see anyone sick and the MS drugs are a lie put out there by the drug companies. You keep putting toxic drugs in your body eventual you will have to pay the price.

Like I have said many times, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. If you feel that docs are useless for chronic illnesses and contribute to illness and are only good if you break a bone then so be it. Oh, I forgot...you did say that they might be appropriate if you get a particularly severe virus or bacteria. Of course you do have a lab in your home to check that out before trusting a doc to figure out the situation. Good luck.

[want2bike]

Do not have a lab but I realize that doctors are a leading cause of death. They do not have a good record. I will always remember what my doctor told me when I was sick. It is just old age and you have to learn to live with it. That was a lie.

http://www.healingdaily.com/Doctors-Are ... the-US.htm

[centenarian100]

If you want specifics, then you should really read the books. The bisphosphonates inhibit osteoclasts and not osteoblasts. The activity of both cells is required for healthy bone remodeling. The denser bone laid down by osteoblasts in the absence of osteoclast activity is not healthy bone. Osteoclast activity is required so that bone can have a proper blood supply. The marketing of the drugs is also pretty sleazy. The pharmas developed bone density scanners of questionable accuracy and sold those in order to sell prescriptions for their new drugs. Moreover, the side effects of the drug can be quite severe and the half-life of a single dose is estimated to exceed 10 years.

Granted what you are saying about marketing and side effects, but the drug decreased the risk of fracture significantly in randomized controlled trials. Any objection to this?

-c

[centenarian100]

For chronic disease they are useless and contribute to illness.

What about the multiple chronic diseases that I listed in my earlier post and their treatments?

If you have a child with Hunter's syndrome, are you going to go with oregano or enzyme replacement therapy?

It's easy to make broad sweeping claims, but the point of my earlier post was to try to get you to temper your claims and concede that there are a large number of conditions for which pharmaceutical therapy is beneficial...and that allopathic medicine is useful for more than just broken bones and rabies.

I don't mean to discount the importance of nutrition and a healthy lifestyle, but you go too far. Again, I gave you 100 counterexamples. I wrote that post in about 5-10 minutes and did minimal research. It wasn't very hard to think of numerous obvious examples. Any objections to the items on that list?

[HarryZ]

Do not have a lab but I realize that doctors are a leading cause of death. They do not have a good record. I will always remember what my doctor told me when I was sick. It is just old age and you have to learn to live with it. That was a lie.

http://www.healingdaily.com/Doctors-Are ... the-US.htm

My suggestion to you then is to avoid doctors at all cost. For you, they are dangerous to your health, none of them can be trusted and they are nothing but a useless group of highly educated people who don't have a clue what they are doing. I'll also include a very large paint brush that you'll need to paint all of them at the same time!

[Kronk]

To completely write off the medical industry would be a mistake, just as relying entirely on it would be. Medication does help, all of it does, but are the side effects worth the benefit? That question has to be made for each and every drug, supplement or diet change you do. Just as the medical industry has unscrupulous individuals so does alternative medicine. Mecola has made a multi-million dollar business selling snake oils by preying on peoples fear of the unknown. Keep your options open by making informed decisions based on unbiased information.

Want2Bike your information far from unbiased… I don’t understand your personal crusade against the medical industry or the need for conflict specifically targeted at MS patients as you have stated you do not have MS. Whether as Eat2BWell at SwankMSDiet or Want2Bike here its always the same rhetoric, and the same arguments you seem to thrive on. Who do you think you are helping by steering people away from medication, vaccines, scientific studies and common sense?

[want2bike]

Someone needs to explain why JAMA the AMA's magazine allowed the article showing doctors were the third leading cause of death in July 2000. Why are the drugs prescribe by the doctors killing so many people? These are the same drugs that have been approved by the FDA through scientific studies. Why would anyone take the chance when all the information suggest these drugs are killing people? The doctors have their record but we need to know what it is. We need this information so we can make an intelligent choice. Do you think the information in JAMA is a lie?

http://www.healingdaily.com/conditions/ ... panies.htm

http://www.healingdaily.com/beliefs.htm

[centenarian100]

Once again, want2bike, I am going to read your posts, click your links, and respond to your arguments logically while you completely ignore my comments.

here is actually article cited in your first link from JAMA in 1998:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9555760

They determine that the rate of fatal adverse drug reactions in hospitalized patients is "0.32% (95% CI, 0.23%-0.41%)" and estimate that adverse drug reactions are "between the fourth and sixth leading cause of death."

...not the third leading cause of death, although still alarmingly high.

The only reason that this information is available is because the mainstream medical community is constantly generating data, negative or positive, for medical treatments and pharmaceuticals. New treatments are constantly being generated and older treatments being disbanded. The only way to efficiently do this is to look a real world data. This isn't being hidden away in a file cabinet somewhere. This is open to the public eye. I found this on pubmed in 10 seconds. You can look up the side effects of any drug in 10 seconds. Sure, there are shady marketing practices going on in the pharmaceutical industry, but it's much more transparent than the nutriceutical industry or almost any other health care related industry.

What the JAMA article is saying isn't a lie. It is an estimation of the contribution of adverse drug reactions to mortality which is obviously quite significant. I assure you that most of the potential adverse reactions were known to the physicians who prescribed them. What is your point? Drugs are killing people, and not using drugs in certain situations is also killing people. Again, read my one hundred examples. If it weren't for aspirin, we would have higher morbidity/mortality from secondary myocardial infarction (as one example).

The decision about whether to use a drug or not (just as with any non-pharmaceutical treatment) should be based on weighing risks and benefits. If you decide to treat all conditions with alternative medicine, you are simply delivering inferior care.

Again, do you disagree with any of the 100 examples I provided on the previous page?

I don't disagree with your sentiment that the use of pharmaceuticals has become cultural, and there is a tendency for them to be overused. I also believe that the availability of pharmaceuticals tends to make people look for the easy way out rather than to modify their lifestyles. This is especially a problem for diseases like type II diabetes and coronary artery disease which are heavily influenced by diet. This trend is mediated not just by physicians but also by patients and culture.

Check out this article which talks about the pressure on physicians to prescribe: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... cs/280995/

That being said, you simply go to far. You come as being single-minded and blythe.

[NHE]

I might disagree with you on # 27 especially after reading the following two books...

Overdosed America: The Broken Promise of American Medicine by Dr. John Abramson.
http://www.overdosedamerica.com/

Selling Sickness by Ray Moynihan and Alan Cassels.
http://www.thisisms.com/forum/reading-n ... c2131.html

ok; perhaps fosamax isn't the greatest example, but do you care to explain your position? The two links don't mention fosamax.

The Overdosed America site does have some info, you just have to do a little digging and read the chapter excerpts.

http://www.overdosedamerica.com/2007/03 ... er-13.html

[want2bike]

I am not going to do a study on the 100 examples you listed. Take too much time to go into all of them and I am not interested in what the medical community has to say about treating disease. I have studied it long enough to know it is a big lie. Just like the lie about aspirin. Aspirin is not a health food. If you want to believe doctors are the sixth leading cause of death that is your choice. There are more drugs today and my belief is doctors and drugs are the number one leading cause of death without a doubt. Be careful believing anything these government agencies have posted on their web sites. These are the same people who tell you drink the fluoride, eat the GMO food and put the mercury in your mouth. They are not interested in good health. It is all about the money with these jokers. Best not to draw too many conclusions about the study done by JAMA and we need more studies to show why the drugs are killing people. There will never be enough studied to stop the doctors and drug companies from killing people. It is in their business model.

http://www.side-effects-site.com/aspiri ... fects.html

[HarryZ]

I am not going to do a study on the 100 examples you listed. Take too much time to go into all of them and I am not interested in what the medical community has to say about treating disease. I have studied it long enough to know it is a big lie.

With comments like that you have the audacity to accuse many of us of not reading your links and having a closed mind??!! Like I said earlier, please don't go near any doctors in the future, regardless of how sick you may be. In your eyes, they are dangerous to your health and a bunch of liars anyway!