sexual intercourse - possible cause of MS

[zjac020]

Bingo!

[centenarian100]

I just wish MS caused sex.

haha

[centenarian100]

MSbro...your brother, just like most people here, has been diagnosed with a disease for which there is currently no direct cause identified and hence no cure.

While I agree with what you wrote about pharma and incentives, I don't agree with this statement. Knowledge of the etiology of a disease has little to do with the efficacy of treatment. The efficacy of treatment has much more to do with the intrinsic treatability of a disease. For instance, appendicitis is very poorly understood, yet most people with the disease have excellent outcomes. No one can predict who will get appendicitis. The risk factors are poorly understood. It is largely a stochastic disease, but the treatment is effective because the appendix can be surgically removed with a low risk of complications, and IV antibiotics are effective in treating systemic spread of bacterial infection for the most part.

Take another disease like down syndrome. Down syndrome is extremely well understood. We can predict who will have it IN UTERO with nearly 100% accuracy. The manifestations of the disease are very well understood, and the underlying genetics and pathophysiology are very well understood. Nonetheless, there is no effective treatment for the underlying disease process because it is fundamentally difficult to change the DNA or protein expression in every cell in the body. No advancement in our understanding of Down syndrome will lead to better treatment of the underlying process of Down syndrome. We would need a breakthrough in our ability to intervene, not in our ability to understand.

In rheumatoid arthritis, TNF alpha inhibitors have led to significantly better outcomes and much less disability (though not without side effects). This has nothing to do with our ability to understand what causes rheumatoid arthritis (we still don't for the most part).

It is true that knowledge inspires treatment, but the connection is much looser than you think.

-Cent

[zjac020]

Dr Bruce Fife has some interesting things to say about RA...or wait, its probably of no use as once again, who would have guessed...big pharma rubbishes this and pays no attention, why bother...we can just SELL TNF alpha inhibitors instead...

[centenarian100]

Dr Bruce Fife has some interesting things to say about RA...or wait, its probably of no use as once again, who would have guessed...big pharma rubbishes this and pays no attention, why bother...we can just SELL TNF alpha inhibitors instead...

Of course pharmaceutical companies want to sell drugs for big profits, but anyone with any significant experience with older disabled RA patients before the TNF alpha inhibitor era knows they represent a significant advance (though not without side effects)

Post TNF alpha inhibitors, the severity of arthritis from RA depicted in the picture below is very uncommon:



(note the wrinkles on her hand demonstrating that she is somewhat older)

[zjac020]

its funny that my mums hand look.similar (maybe not quite as bad) except that she's been told its osteoarthritis, not RA and so no medication or treatment available. Hos is RA tested for and diagnosed?

[PKE]

I know of a case of husband comes down with MS first. Then wife develops MS several years after marriage and 6 kids. then 3 of the 6 kids are diagnosed with MS. The boy was diagnosed at about 30, the 2 girls were diagnosed in their 50's.

No MS in either of the husband or wife's family,

Figure that one out???

[zjac020]

Id definately say Lyme in that case...

[centenarian100]

its funny that my mums hand look.similar (maybe not quite as bad) except that she's been told its osteoarthritis, not RA and so no medication or treatment available. Hos is RA tested for and diagnosed?

The specific deformities depicted in that picture including sparring of the relative sparing of the distal interphalangeal joints is highly typical of rheumatoid arthritis. It would be easy for a layperson to mistake deformities typical of osteoarthritis for those typical of rheumatoid arthritis. to answer your question, an elevated rheumatoid factor (Rf) can support a diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis, but it is mostly a clinical diagnosis. If your mother's hands truly look like those depicted in the picture, you should consider a second opinion.

[centenarian100]

I know of a case of husband comes down with MS first. Then wife develops MS several years after marriage and 6 kids. then 3 of the 6 kids are diagnosed with MS. The boy was diagnosed at about 30, the 2 girls were diagnosed in their 50's.

No MS in either of the husband or wife's family,

Figure that one out???

about 1/1000 people have multiple sclerosis, so if you have multiple sclerosis, there is about a 1/1000 chance your spouse will have it in his or her lifetime. In the united states, there are about 300,000,000 people and about 300,000 people with multiple sclerosis, so about 300 of them would be expected to have a spouse with multiple sclerosis by random chance. In reality, it is probably more likely than this because people meet each other due to multiple sclerosis.

A child with two parents with multiple sclerosis has about a 25% risk of the disease, so it would not be that unlikely for 3 out of 6 children to have the disease.

There are families trees with a very impressive history of type II diabetes, but no one would say that type II diabetes is "genetic" (though there certainly are heretable risk factors)

[centenarian100]

Id definately say Lyme in that case...

You would say "definitely" based on no other information. You are telling me that 5 people developed a disease not known to have person to person transmission or a long incubation period. Also, zero out of 5 had a known history of tick bite, erythema migrans or other typical symptoms of lyme disease. Zero at of 5 had typical central nervous system manifestations of lyme disease (meningitis, bilateral VII palsy).

I continue to be amazed by the unmitigated gall of some of the posters on this board. Why not just award yourself the nobel prize in medicine for figuring out with minimal information that five separate people have all been misdiagnosed with multiple sclerosis and actually have a different disease.

Can you tell me that I have neurosarcoidosis based on my writing style or that my dog has a sphenoid wing meningioma if I e-mail you a picture of his poops.

Sheesh.

[zjac020]

I apologize, maybe definately is too strong a term.

You say lyme is not known to have person to person transmission? Em, yes it is. There were several studies indicating this, but again are we still waiting for big pharma to support this? Also, it has a very long incubation period, hence how many cases become chronic, and even after 10 years of mis diagnosis as MS, are then correctly diagnosed as Lyme.

Look at evidence of Lyme, only 25-40% or so are linked to tick bite that cause the typical bulls eye rash, so that alone is a poor indicator and often delays the diagnosis. As for "typical central nervous systems manifestations of lyme", well its symptoms overlap perfectly in many cases with MS. Evidence also suggests that the type of Lyme depends on the different region (europe having a different type of lyme/s than the US for example) so one should not expect the same symptoms amongst two sufferers (as with MS) or for these symptoms to also be perfectly distinguishable from MS (if that was the case why do some estimate that 10% of MS diagnsosis may actually be Lyme).

I continue to be amazed by how many people still believe the largest (and very profitable) institutions are going to have people's real interest at heart. Im not saying that those 5 people cannot have MS, but lets be honest the odds of that are ridiculously high, now matter how you look at it. Now ask yourself, how many of those 5 people have spent approx 3.000-4.000 USD dollars each (minimum) for the good and appropriate Lyme and Coinfections tests? Often requiring several tests (at different times) to rule out false negatives (very high in Lyme testing). Are we waiting for the US department of health to recommend and pay for the tests? Why bother...MRIs are much cheaper, and MS a far more profitable disease for the system.

Btw, im one of those people who did spend money (my own) to pay the lyme tests. Never had a bulls eye rash, but do spend time every year in a rural part of Spain (but not rolling around in the forest). I had borderline positive and some other co infections. I showed them to my doctor but he did nothing. Why? It's not in his protocol, oh! and his cheap, useless, state paid Lyme test indicates negative for lyme, so thats that.

Cheers,
zjac

[centenarian100]

You say lyme is not known to have person to person transmission?

source?

if that was the case why do some estimate that 10% of MS diagnosis may actually be Lyme.

Source? Why isn't multiple sclerosis more common in areas with a lot of lyme disease (i.e. NJ, USA) compared to areas with virtually no lyme disease (i.e. seattle, USA)

MS a far more profitable disease for the system.

MS is money making for pharmaceutical companies but very much money losing for medicare, medicaid, and SSDI. Do you really think the government is conspiring to make people more disabled? You have lost your mind.

Btw, im one of those people who did spend money (my own) to pay the lyme tests. Never had a bulls eye rash, but do spend time every year in a rural part of Spain (but not rolling around in the forest). I had borderline positive and some other co infections. I showed them to my doctor but he did nothing. Why? It's not in his protocol, oh! and his cheap, useless, state paid Lyme test indicates negative for lyme, so thats that.

[/quote][/quote]

Care to post your results?

If this from stony brook? You do realize that having a few positive proteins on western blot is a common benign finding in uninfected individuals not suggestive of lyme disease?

By the way, I'm giving you a hard time because I don't like the way you made your initial comment. You could say "it's possible they actually had a different neurological disease i.e. neuroborreliosis"...but saying "definitely lyme" is outrageously ridiculous. Don't expect me to believe anything you say ever again. Just post a link to the data if you are going to make a claim.

[zjac020]

Dont worry, I wont loose any sleep because you wont believe anything i say "ever again", that's not a problem for me.

Most people here, and im sure you included, have spent years researching MS. I cant recall every single article ive read and sources. We live in the world of google, the point being that the sources are out there and some are easier to find than others. Everyone here has a slightly different priority of what they are interested in when it comes to their MS and so will research some topics more than others.

Oh heck, just to show you what I mean, with regards to Lyme and sexual transmission:

http://www.treatlyme.net/treat-lyme-boo ... mitted-yes

That page has sources listed. No doubt youll know what extensive detailes studies, the kind big pharma invests in for the benefit of "human health" (others think its just to sell you knew products).

With regards to the mis diagnosis rates:

http://www.lymeinfo.net/multiplesclerosis.html

I cant specifically find where it indicated 10%,its probably and extrapolation. If its a fact that has not been proved,but is suspected, confirming actual error rates of diagnosis is going to be extremely hard, but most neurologist admit some cases may be diagnosed which is why they carry out the very basic, and very useless, lyme tests. Do you also need me to provide sources to prove that the basic lyme tests have a ridiculously high false negative rates?

Just out of curiousity, have you worked in big pharma? Have you actually ever spoken to anyone who has and can give an honest opinion about what drives big pharm board members? Have you ever read and investment bankers report on MS drugs and their investment recommendations? Do you think money is made by curing or treating? Once you answer that question, take a step back and think, if you where the CEO of a big pharma company, where would you put your resources in order to ensure continued growth and, more importantly, returns for shareholders? Why has it taken the UK government (not a pharma company) to raise alarm on the absolute need for new antibiotics? Why hasnt big pharma investigated new antibiotics preemptively to avoid a situation where bacterial infections may cause thousands of deaths in the future as existing antibiotics are no longer effective? Do you need sources for this?

We live in a world driven by money. You asked "Do you really think the government is conspiring to make people more disabled? You have lost your mind." now seriously, and even more so if you live in the US...do I have to point out all the issues US citizens face health wise with GMO foods, the very outdated FDA food piramid, the narrow mindedness of the ADA ("mercury is perfectly safe"),pesticides, toxic chemicals, polution and a very very very long etc? But its not a conspiracy. All this information is publicly availble to you. Its just down to you how you interpret it. Maybe I have lost my mind because I just no longer believe my health is at the centre of a western governments interest.

Finally, what would you like to know about my Lyme tests? Unlike others I like to share information, and not hound people to badger them with requests for their sources etc. Ive generally come to find that most MS sufferers who have investigated their disease (i.e. those on this board) have come to the conclusion that aleopathic medicine has a very narrow minded attitude on the disease, and that there is a lot more going on.

[centenarian100]

So just to clarify zjac020, you are retracting your statement that those 5 individuals "definitely" have central nervous system manifestations of lyme disease. Is this correct?

Most people here, and im sure you included, have spent years researching MS. I cant recall every single article ive read and sources. We live in the world of google, the point being that the sources are out there and some are easier to find than others. Everyone here has a slightly different priority of what they are interested in when it comes to their MS and so will research some topics more than others.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Just out of curiousity, have you worked in big pharma?

No, but I do agree that pharmaceutical companies are incentivized to developed expensive treatments for chronic diseases rather than cures. You are absolutely correct that this tends to lead to the underdevelopment of treatments such as antibiotics. However, they are not conspiring to conceal a cure for multiple sclerosis. If they could develop a cure, they would make a killing as they would get 100% of the market and could charge >$100,000 for a treatment in the united states.

Besides, pharmaceutical company CEOs and other high level executives get sick too. Their families also get sick. They receive essentially the same treatment as everyone else. In The US, we live to an average of 75 years of age. Traditional societies such as Australian aborigines have an expected lifespan of about 35 years even though they have lower rates of various chronic diseases. Allopathic medicine has its weaknesses and is very imperfect, but it has its uses.