drury, yes, i know they are connected by my experience. dr. flanagan mentioned that he did not think it wise for you to mix the splinting with cranial and upper cervical because they are closely related. i see where he is coming from.
i'm sure he can explain the relationship in detail if needed. i just know that he knows more about what he's talking about and writing about than anyone i've ever come across in 20 yrs. everything makes a lot of sence, plus the idea that anyone can have injuries and end up with the diag. of ms and the possibility that our spine could not be involved just doesn't make sence.
i do plan on getting nucca "google nucca chiro." if and when my other spinal issues are as stable as i can get them. but for me i got a lot of wear and tear on these old bones and yrs. of not getting proper treatment that i am hoping for the best. if i had found a dr. like dr. flanagan 20 yrs. ago i believe in my heart that i would not be in the shape i'm in.
your daughter is young and you are learning of all this now and hopefully this will make the difference. i feel it will.
just for the heck of it google spinal stenosis symptoms. or cervical bone spurs. i have those symptoms and no dr. would address them as a possible cause of my symptoms---they preferred to call it ms and close the door.
you are fighting the battle of your life for your daughter. keep the doors open.
CCSVI and CCVBP
-
uprightdoc
- Family Elder
- Posts: 1995
- Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:00 pm
- Location: USA
- Contact:
Nigel,
Good to hear from you. While the formulation of thoughts and motor action for speech come from higher cortical area of the brain called Broca and Wernikes areas, most of the physical action is performed by the tongue, lips and throat. The tongue is run by the hypoglossal nerve which is the last and lowest cranial nerve. It exits the skull through the hypoglossal canal which is in the foramen magnum. Pressure in and around the FM can affect the hypogossal nerve and tongue. The creaking in upper cervical spine is called crepitis. It comes from cavitation (cracking) of gas bubbles contained in synovial (joint) fluids. It also comes from dry or strained connective tissues. You also have a history of trigeminal neuralgia on the same side. The trigeminal nerves is likewise affected by malpositioning shifts of the brainstem within the posterior fossa.
It's too early to evaluate your change is sleep pattern. Although it is a fairly common complaint in neurodegenerative diseases such as MS, I suspect in your case it is more due to emotional stress. Severe emotional stress can make even the healthiest people physically weak to the point of complete breakdown.
Give yourself some time. Meditation is excellent for healing but if you choose to do it, then do it appropriately. Sit in Japanese seiza style or use Za Zen and "stand like a tree." If you are too weak to stand, then stand like a tree with your back to wall. Focus on zen breathing and a state of "no mind."
Good to hear from you. While the formulation of thoughts and motor action for speech come from higher cortical area of the brain called Broca and Wernikes areas, most of the physical action is performed by the tongue, lips and throat. The tongue is run by the hypoglossal nerve which is the last and lowest cranial nerve. It exits the skull through the hypoglossal canal which is in the foramen magnum. Pressure in and around the FM can affect the hypogossal nerve and tongue. The creaking in upper cervical spine is called crepitis. It comes from cavitation (cracking) of gas bubbles contained in synovial (joint) fluids. It also comes from dry or strained connective tissues. You also have a history of trigeminal neuralgia on the same side. The trigeminal nerves is likewise affected by malpositioning shifts of the brainstem within the posterior fossa.
It's too early to evaluate your change is sleep pattern. Although it is a fairly common complaint in neurodegenerative diseases such as MS, I suspect in your case it is more due to emotional stress. Severe emotional stress can make even the healthiest people physically weak to the point of complete breakdown.
Give yourself some time. Meditation is excellent for healing but if you choose to do it, then do it appropriately. Sit in Japanese seiza style or use Za Zen and "stand like a tree." If you are too weak to stand, then stand like a tree with your back to wall. Focus on zen breathing and a state of "no mind."
-
uprightdoc
- Family Elder
- Posts: 1995
- Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:00 pm
- Location: USA
- Contact:
Drury,Drury wrote:Regarding my daughter's splinting (I trust that means the mouth piece that she wears during day and the one she wears at night?) did you mean she should stick with having upper cervical work only while she is being treated for TMJ? I would hate for her to be doing something that could end up causing her more harm. Her TMJ doctor knew she was getting AO adjustments when necessary.
I hear what you are saying about getting the full spine checked and hope we can get an appointment next week prior to her having CCSVI which is the following week- insurance permitting. I did put a call in and am waiting to hear.
By the way is a head tilt obvious? The only thing I have noticed is that she sometimes turns her head cautiously.
It's better not to mix cranial work with upper cervical. I know both. The theory behind craniopahty is sound and so are the manuvers in skilled hands. The problem is how it is currently practiced. The analysis is highly subjective and impossible to see or measure, such as fixation of particular cranial sutures or particular strains and deformation of the cranial base. Upper cervical misalignments are much easier to measure and treat objectively.
Head tilts are always obvious to me but may not be so easy for you to see. It should show up on the cervical x-rays if she has one.
Thanks Dr.
I have mostly used Mantra meditation and do it lying flat out stretched on a flat surface e.g bed. I have very positive relief from meditation and can clear my mind reasonably well even in the moments of mind overloaded worry and blaming myself for the actions of others, getting better at the understanding and owning I am responsible for myself.
Had a lucid thought about something blossom said in an earlier thread regarding the damage to the spine, height loss in discs, degenerative disc disease, spurs and nerve impingements and the like.
This is a slight jump here, ready? If there is nerve inflammation and damage that has occurred for any 'natural' age related reason, is it possible that the "auto immune concept' of mylon lesion forming that is happening around the body, or for that matter immune cells looking for similar damage once a MS type process has begun (damage in eg neck first causing immune involvement, then the immune system is now activated and goes on around the body and attacks where there is hypoplasia beginning to damage nerve tracks and 'spreading the lesion load'? It seems hard to explain some causes where there is different areas of the body effected. I think I am trying to understand the various form of MS, the various progressions, the various patterns, the various progression rates and the various severity of disability.
That said I just realized that the whole package of blood flow and CSF outcomes can be simply explained by time, and the compression of times effect because we are looking for cause.
Probably should have processed my thinking before writing folks, sorry.
It is a beautiful morning dawning here,
regards Nigel
I have mostly used Mantra meditation and do it lying flat out stretched on a flat surface e.g bed. I have very positive relief from meditation and can clear my mind reasonably well even in the moments of mind overloaded worry and blaming myself for the actions of others, getting better at the understanding and owning I am responsible for myself.
Had a lucid thought about something blossom said in an earlier thread regarding the damage to the spine, height loss in discs, degenerative disc disease, spurs and nerve impingements and the like.
This is a slight jump here, ready? If there is nerve inflammation and damage that has occurred for any 'natural' age related reason, is it possible that the "auto immune concept' of mylon lesion forming that is happening around the body, or for that matter immune cells looking for similar damage once a MS type process has begun (damage in eg neck first causing immune involvement, then the immune system is now activated and goes on around the body and attacks where there is hypoplasia beginning to damage nerve tracks and 'spreading the lesion load'? It seems hard to explain some causes where there is different areas of the body effected. I think I am trying to understand the various form of MS, the various progressions, the various patterns, the various progression rates and the various severity of disability.
That said I just realized that the whole package of blood flow and CSF outcomes can be simply explained by time, and the compression of times effect because we are looking for cause.
Probably should have processed my thinking before writing folks, sorry.
It is a beautiful morning dawning here,
regards Nigel
-
uprightdoc
- Family Elder
- Posts: 1995
- Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:00 pm
- Location: USA
- Contact:
Nigel,
I just did a new page on my website on hyperintesity signals. I think it may answer some of your questions. The cause of hyperintesity signals in MS cases aren't always clear cut and they aren't necessarity due to demyelination.
http://www.upright-health.com/hyperinte ... gnals.html
I just did a new page on my website on hyperintesity signals. I think it may answer some of your questions. The cause of hyperintesity signals in MS cases aren't always clear cut and they aren't necessarity due to demyelination.
http://www.upright-health.com/hyperinte ... gnals.html
Dr.Flanagan,
Thanks again.
Quick question. When my daughter sneezed hard today she felt her neck go out again ( its lower down between her shoulder blade area if that makes sense) and I was with her afternoon and she complained of her legs feeling heavy and needed to rest for a while. Could there be a connection?
Next one is her AO doc does not measure her neck in any way other than by putting his hand there. For example he will say it is completely out by feeling it that way and will spend considerable time repositioning it. Does that sound right? I was just a little concerned given you said that there is a way to measure the neck earlier.
Drury
Thanks again.
Quick question. When my daughter sneezed hard today she felt her neck go out again ( its lower down between her shoulder blade area if that makes sense) and I was with her afternoon and she complained of her legs feeling heavy and needed to rest for a while. Could there be a connection?
Next one is her AO doc does not measure her neck in any way other than by putting his hand there. For example he will say it is completely out by feeling it that way and will spend considerable time repositioning it. Does that sound right? I was just a little concerned given you said that there is a way to measure the neck earlier.
Drury
Dr. Flanagan,
Sorry one last thing and you may not know the answer to this but - Do you think it is a good thing to be dealing with the TMJ issues when she is about to be treated for CCSVI? Would the mouthpieces alter anything? She is meant to wear them for at least 8 weeks as he said her jaw is very tight and still very inflamed on one side from her accident in 05.
She does have a coupled of cervical MRI's that were done in 05 & 06. Would the neck tilt show on them if there is one?
Drury
Sorry one last thing and you may not know the answer to this but - Do you think it is a good thing to be dealing with the TMJ issues when she is about to be treated for CCSVI? Would the mouthpieces alter anything? She is meant to wear them for at least 8 weeks as he said her jaw is very tight and still very inflamed on one side from her accident in 05.
She does have a coupled of cervical MRI's that were done in 05 & 06. Would the neck tilt show on them if there is one?
Drury
Blossom,
Thank you for your thoughts. I absolutely agree with you about injuries and MS and I will look up the various things you have suggested. I have a vague memory of one doc saying my daughter had a cervical bone spur(s) although I might be wrong. Sooo many things to take into consideration and soooo many doctors to see. The past five years have been one long round of doctors - I am sure you know what i mean!
I AM so grateful learning all of this now and often wonder what I would have done without the support of others on TIMS. To have good doctors look at other ways of treatment and give of their time just blows me away. We are all in this together and that feels great.
Drury
Thank you for your thoughts. I absolutely agree with you about injuries and MS and I will look up the various things you have suggested. I have a vague memory of one doc saying my daughter had a cervical bone spur(s) although I might be wrong. Sooo many things to take into consideration and soooo many doctors to see. The past five years have been one long round of doctors - I am sure you know what i mean!
I AM so grateful learning all of this now and often wonder what I would have done without the support of others on TIMS. To have good doctors look at other ways of treatment and give of their time just blows me away. We are all in this together and that feels great.
Drury
Hello. Dr I love the two comments from your post on; http://www.upright-health.com/mslesions.html
"A flood of cranked-up highly motivated MS patients are leading the way. When Parkinson's patients join the fray the pressure will increase three fold, so will the money for further research into venous drainage problems."
and
"Halting the progression of MS and improving signs and symptoms unrelated to the lesions is definitely possible by restoring fluid mechanics in the brain. Upper cervical correction is one way to do it. The liberation procedure is another. We are on a completely new path but we have only taken the first step. Things can only get better as we learn more and continue to unravel the mystery of MS and the unique design of the incredible human brain due to upright posture. I believe upright MR's and angiograms will give us more answers."
In the four years of intense searching and seeking an answer to my collections of symptoms and disability I have in my search come across so much of what you have written in the blog. It is impressive to find all this knowledge and detail in one place. The little pieces of the puzzle and where they fit is something I have seen us all talk about here and on other sites about MS. We each have had our focus points and it is such a relief to find that you have pulled all this together and put it in one place, for us to understand in depth.
Getting the medical world to read your blog and http://www.upright-health.com/index.html , as well as your book would make MS and other diseases into subjects that all doctors, future doctors and researchers would love to be involved with. The way you have blended the information with explanation really works for me and I would guess it would be easily taken on board for most.
I plan to circulate you gifts to us as much as I can, we all need to HEAR what you have to say.
Hey, thanks Dr.
regards Nigel
"A flood of cranked-up highly motivated MS patients are leading the way. When Parkinson's patients join the fray the pressure will increase three fold, so will the money for further research into venous drainage problems."
and
"Halting the progression of MS and improving signs and symptoms unrelated to the lesions is definitely possible by restoring fluid mechanics in the brain. Upper cervical correction is one way to do it. The liberation procedure is another. We are on a completely new path but we have only taken the first step. Things can only get better as we learn more and continue to unravel the mystery of MS and the unique design of the incredible human brain due to upright posture. I believe upright MR's and angiograms will give us more answers."
In the four years of intense searching and seeking an answer to my collections of symptoms and disability I have in my search come across so much of what you have written in the blog. It is impressive to find all this knowledge and detail in one place. The little pieces of the puzzle and where they fit is something I have seen us all talk about here and on other sites about MS. We each have had our focus points and it is such a relief to find that you have pulled all this together and put it in one place, for us to understand in depth.
Getting the medical world to read your blog and http://www.upright-health.com/index.html , as well as your book would make MS and other diseases into subjects that all doctors, future doctors and researchers would love to be involved with. The way you have blended the information with explanation really works for me and I would guess it would be easily taken on board for most.
I plan to circulate you gifts to us as much as I can, we all need to HEAR what you have to say.
Hey, thanks Dr.
regards Nigel
-
blossom
- Family Elder
- Posts: 1394
- Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:00 pm
- Location: south western pa.
- Contact:
ccsvi
drury, forever it seems i just knew that fall did something very bad to me. now, dr. flanagan, can explain so many things. as for stenosis in my spine and other problems it blows my mind that this has never been addressed and looked into very deeply by mainstream research. i tried my best to get them to for yrs. especially when all the major nerves and blood vessels are on the same highway in our body that a hump or a bump or narrowing could lead to a major crash like you see on tv when there is a 50 car pile up. a chain reaction to speak. then if too much time passes it's harder to clean up the mess and lives that may have had a chance to live are either dead or badly crippled. and, there are some that that for some act of fate seem to recover fully.
your daughter may or may not have stenosis we're all different. but, when you look at many symptoms that they call ms and you look at symptoms of spinal problems or the vascular problem symptoms, how could you afford not to address these issues. i'm so glad that your daughter and others are becoming aware of dr. flanagan's work now instead of later.
your daughter may or may not have stenosis we're all different. but, when you look at many symptoms that they call ms and you look at symptoms of spinal problems or the vascular problem symptoms, how could you afford not to address these issues. i'm so glad that your daughter and others are becoming aware of dr. flanagan's work now instead of later.
-
blossom
- Family Elder
- Posts: 1394
- Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:00 pm
- Location: south western pa.
- Contact:
ccsvi
dr. flanagan, here i go again about the upright mri.'s. i dug out my mri's i had taken in an upright mri a few yrs. ago. "the pictures are not on a cd they are the old type". i only had the cervical done and i was sitting. at that time i was stronger and they had a hard time getting a good shot saying i had movement. i had them done at that time because i felt that if i could get them in an upright position it may show something they were missing because especially when i tilt my head i move differently. laying flat i felt different etc. even for a normal person to hold as still as you have to be for an mri would be rough. even in a sitting position.
i called the place i had them done and asked them if maybe they had come up with a cage or type of support to keep movement from happening. they have nothing. which to me makes no sence someone has not come up with something to address this. the upright mri is and i feel would show things a laying position would not. that's why i went even paid cash because ins. did not approve.
even in a laying down mri when they do the cervical they put your neck and head in a thing that prevents movement. but they have this wonderful upright mri and no way to help prevent movement. again, something that does not make sence. even if the darn thing had some kind of arm rest anything. they told me that the only thing they can do is put this seat belt thing on. well, if they think you might fall off the seat i'd think that may be a hint that a person could use a little help to keep from wobbling.
this was pittsburgh. they said phila. was the next closest and it was the same protocol.
so, i'm gonna take dr. weimer these old upright mri's for what it might be worth. of course when i previously took them to the neuro i was seeing at the time i got the same old yadayada. i know i can sit but just for the cervical they said i had movement and i want it all.
so, i guess i'll lay down. i'm pretty sure pittsburgh has a telsa 7 mri. i'm calling monday. ins. may give a hard time with that too but if you think this route may reveal anything or be of help i got credit cards. the way i read they are the strongest. all this can get mentally draining at times.
nothing at all with this miserable problem has ever come easy. i know you said to discuss this with dr. weimer and we are and he's very good about things. i'm kinda bouncing right now. any input?
i called the place i had them done and asked them if maybe they had come up with a cage or type of support to keep movement from happening. they have nothing. which to me makes no sence someone has not come up with something to address this. the upright mri is and i feel would show things a laying position would not. that's why i went even paid cash because ins. did not approve.
even in a laying down mri when they do the cervical they put your neck and head in a thing that prevents movement. but they have this wonderful upright mri and no way to help prevent movement. again, something that does not make sence. even if the darn thing had some kind of arm rest anything. they told me that the only thing they can do is put this seat belt thing on. well, if they think you might fall off the seat i'd think that may be a hint that a person could use a little help to keep from wobbling.
this was pittsburgh. they said phila. was the next closest and it was the same protocol.
so, i'm gonna take dr. weimer these old upright mri's for what it might be worth. of course when i previously took them to the neuro i was seeing at the time i got the same old yadayada. i know i can sit but just for the cervical they said i had movement and i want it all.
so, i guess i'll lay down. i'm pretty sure pittsburgh has a telsa 7 mri. i'm calling monday. ins. may give a hard time with that too but if you think this route may reveal anything or be of help i got credit cards. the way i read they are the strongest. all this can get mentally draining at times.
nothing at all with this miserable problem has ever come easy. i know you said to discuss this with dr. weimer and we are and he's very good about things. i'm kinda bouncing right now. any input?
-
uprightdoc
- Family Elder
- Posts: 1995
- Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:00 pm
- Location: USA
- Contact:
Drury,
Different chiropractor use different methods. Leg checks and thermograms are fairly standard in upper cervical. There are different types of touch, which is called palpation. Personally, I prefer palpation to thermograms. There are two types of palpation. One is static and the other is called motion palpation. In pratice I used static palpation to check for trigger points in the bellies of the muscles as well as for tenderness in their tendon orgins and insertions into their respective bones. In contrast to static palpation, I used range of motion palpation to feel and check for ease and relative symmtery in overall ranges of motion as well as the subtle movements in the individual segments of the spine. It takes a great deal of practice and skill. In addtion to palpation of muscles and connective tissues I always checked strength in the muscles. On top of that I always checked posture and gait. When I started in practice I used blue and red plumb lines suspended from my ceiling for easy visibility and accuracy and a scoliometer to check the level of the shoulders and pelvis and depth of curves in the spine. Some NUCCA doctors use an Anatometer which is an excellent but expensive piece of equipment to check posture. I also watched my patients walk, if they could. Watching a patient walk is very revealing about musculoskeletal and neurological conditions. Lastly, in addition to chiropractic tests I used standard orthopedic and neurological tests.
I don't think the TMJ splints will negatively impact the venoplasty. Adding splints to the TMJ stretches the jaw muscles attached to the face and base of the skull. It thus decompresses the area. If anything, the decompression could enhance the effect of the venoplasty.
MRIs are not the best way of determining a head tilt but the cervical x-rays should show it if she has one.
Different chiropractor use different methods. Leg checks and thermograms are fairly standard in upper cervical. There are different types of touch, which is called palpation. Personally, I prefer palpation to thermograms. There are two types of palpation. One is static and the other is called motion palpation. In pratice I used static palpation to check for trigger points in the bellies of the muscles as well as for tenderness in their tendon orgins and insertions into their respective bones. In contrast to static palpation, I used range of motion palpation to feel and check for ease and relative symmtery in overall ranges of motion as well as the subtle movements in the individual segments of the spine. It takes a great deal of practice and skill. In addtion to palpation of muscles and connective tissues I always checked strength in the muscles. On top of that I always checked posture and gait. When I started in practice I used blue and red plumb lines suspended from my ceiling for easy visibility and accuracy and a scoliometer to check the level of the shoulders and pelvis and depth of curves in the spine. Some NUCCA doctors use an Anatometer which is an excellent but expensive piece of equipment to check posture. I also watched my patients walk, if they could. Watching a patient walk is very revealing about musculoskeletal and neurological conditions. Lastly, in addition to chiropractic tests I used standard orthopedic and neurological tests.
I don't think the TMJ splints will negatively impact the venoplasty. Adding splints to the TMJ stretches the jaw muscles attached to the face and base of the skull. It thus decompresses the area. If anything, the decompression could enhance the effect of the venoplasty.
MRIs are not the best way of determining a head tilt but the cervical x-rays should show it if she has one.
Thanks Dr. for the deeper answer here, you have answered my question from way back about the palpation method and its effectiveness. I notice the operator skill part too. John was in my view so laxed in his assessment of me. I was already lying face down when he would enter the room. He alternated rooms and asked his patients to be settled on the table for at least 5 minutes while he was with his earlier patient. I could absolutely see the benefit in the concept of this that he explained. From this point he does his leg length and pelvis checks which in my case always required blocks and rest in that position and he would see another patient. He would return about 10 minutes later remove the blocks and again check leg length and then proceed with palpation up the spine and adjust with the actuator as necessary up to base of the neck. I would then move to sit at the foot end of the table for him to test neck palpation and movement. So for me I understood the palpation method it was for my mind the best option for a skilled operator, muscle testing was used by the last Chiropractor that I had successes with, but unfortunately he moved City. The thing that I had questions about with Johns method was that he never saw me walk, or move in general, sure MS has limited my whole movements and it should be in my mind clues for him to see where things can be 'reasons' for limitations and areas I could work on to maintain rather than loose flexibility for instance. I believe he missed many opportunities to be a better Chiropractor and I also felt he had a wall in his willingness to be better or learn more. As though he was stuck. I didn't get any comment out of him regarding the work you do Dr and I had progressively emailed him little bits of information about Chiropractors finding results from adjustments in de-generative disease, interestingly one article had come from the College of Chiropractors in NZ. It actually stunned me that someone who was so passionate about what his Chiropractic could do, including having extensive photo walls of children in his reception and rooms that he has adjusted over the years. And he was also having monthly discussion talks/meeting with his new customers on the benefit of Chiropractic. Something was missing in the picture for me, and that was why I needed to find better support and a practioneer with more knowledge than I and more experience. Walk the talk, was important as it is for all of us.
Dr will I get to here about you experience regarding upper spine health. Once you spoke ever so briefly about you symptoms, that to me sounded very much like ones we PwMS have. It made me sit up and listen and then nothing more has been offered and I must say that it intrigued me so much that I did all the usual internet checks to, sadly for me, find nothing. Would it be OK with you for us to know please?
Well its 5 am here and dark and I will go down to the stream with my dog Sage and watch the sun rise.
Regards Nigel
Dr will I get to here about you experience regarding upper spine health. Once you spoke ever so briefly about you symptoms, that to me sounded very much like ones we PwMS have. It made me sit up and listen and then nothing more has been offered and I must say that it intrigued me so much that I did all the usual internet checks to, sadly for me, find nothing. Would it be OK with you for us to know please?
Well its 5 am here and dark and I will go down to the stream with my dog Sage and watch the sun rise.
Regards Nigel