Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

A forum to discuss the Coimbra Protocol which uses high-dose vitamin D3 to treat multiple sclerosis.
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dlynn
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by dlynn » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:56 am

Thank you all for this info, I really appreciate it
I take this matter very seriously and will contact my protocol Dr. and discuss magnesium with him. I'll keep you posted, but tomorrow I'll be on the road heading to "The Sunshine State" for a little R&R...and some more Vitamin D. For now I'll cut back to 10,000 IUs

dlynn

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jimmylegs
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by jimmylegs » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:28 am

hi dlynn

i think we can assume your protocol doc will not be up to speed on important magnesium info.
while enjoying your r&r, to enhance your prep with a little light reading, you might be interested in this specific magnesium diet and supplement info provided recently to @david elsewhere on the forum:

http://www.thisisms.com/forum/natural-a ... ml#p253877 (link updated after some content was relocated)
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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dlynn
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by dlynn » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:57 am

Thanks jimmylegs!

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jimmylegs
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by jimmylegs » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:39 pm

no worries :)
if you want to implement sooner rather than later, consider stocking up on a high quality mag product while you're still in familiar retail territory.
enjoy your vacay!
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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dlynn
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by dlynn » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:53 pm

jimmylegs,
But what do you think of Magnesium glycinate in powder form? I prefer powder as there are no other ingredients

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jimmylegs
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by jimmylegs » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:21 pm

personal preference i would think. it's the elemental mag you want, to some extent regardless of the 'delivery vehicle'.
i personally avoid the powder drink mix shown below. i prefer mag glycinate powder in a gelcap, to straight powder.

comparison of options from a vendor i currently use (only for powder caps):

powder
http://orangenaturals.com/essential/mag ... te-powder/
Medicinal Ingredients Each rounded scoop (1g) contains Magnesium (magnesium bisglycinate) 200mg
Non Medicinal Ingredients Citric Acid (1%)

powder caps
http://orangenaturals.com/essential/mag ... ate-200mg/
Medicinal Ingredients Each vegetable capsule contains Magnesium (magnesium glycinate) 200mg
Non Medicinal Ingredients Vegetable-grade magnesium stearate, vegetable capsule

powder drink mix
http://orangenaturals.com/essential/magpop/
Each packet contains Magnesium (magnesium bisglycinate) 100mg, Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) 325mg
Non Medicinal Ingredients Citric Acid (1%), citric acid, tartaric acid, sodium bicarbonate,* calcium carbonate,* potassium carbonate,* stevia, xylitol, tapioca maltodextrin, quercetin, beta-carotene, silicon dioxide, orange juice powder, natural orange flavour. *Provides electrolytes.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

Kittie
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by Kittie » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:41 am

I think you need magnesium. I have never had pain in my bones. I take three types of magnesium, Citrate, ionic and neural magtein. Also riboflavin. I am on 60,000iu vitamin D3.

Kittie.

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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by ElliotB » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:43 pm

"15000 IU / day being no big deal"

I did not state that, just that it is not an overly high dosage. But with reasonable care, it should not be a big deal. There are only a hand full of things that should be monitored when taking higher than typical dosages of D3. Consider that some are taking truly high dosages of D3 in the amount of 100,000 iu daily or 200,000 iu daily or more without health issues. Dr. Coimbra feels that 10,000 iu is a physiological, safe dose of vitamin D3, which is the amount of D3 our bodies produce when exposed to 20-30 minutes to the mid-day sun. According to Dr. Coimbra and others, with this daily dose (and even perhaps a bit higher depending on who you ask), no precautions or medical supervision is necessary.

There is no consensus of when medical supervision is necessary but ultimately if you are taking higher rather than lower dosages and/or uncomfortable about the dose you are taking, it is probably a good idea to follow Dr. Coimbra's suggestions.

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jimmylegs
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by jimmylegs » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:39 pm

yeah i'm still waiting for the properly designed and peer reviewed academic publications.
re what people 'feel' about 10,000 IU yeah i read Hollis 2005 too. it's one of the papers with which i originally made the case to my GP for my own early regimen 12 yrs ago. doesn't change the fact that a TiMS member died magnesium deficient on a 10K a day D3 regimen.
this topic demonstrates that so called 'protocol doctors' aren't necessarily paying sufficient attention even to the things we do know, like serum magnesium. who knows what else might crop up, that we don't even know we should be testing for yet.
i think we all know that 'the tests we ran didn't pick anything up' does not equate to 'health'.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

AntonioBR
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by AntonioBR » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:03 pm



Yesterday my brother went to the Coimbra Protocol doctor.

He looked at his tests 25(OH)D3, PTH, Calcium (total and ionized), Urea & creatinine, etc.

All tests results are Ok!

I took advantage of the occasion to ask the doctor about Magnesium deficiency and Hypercalcemia.

The doctor has +500 patients - he works part-time in the hospital and part-time in his clinic. He said that half of these patients are people with MS and another half are people with other autoimmune diseases as Crohn's disease, Ulcerative Colitis, Atopic Dermatitis, etc. that also take high doses of vitamin D.

According to the doctor, less than 4% of his patients had health problems related to the protocol. He had only 18 patients that had hypercalcemia. Where 10 of them had it because of kidney problems that happened years before they started the protocol and rest of patients (8 people) had it because of lack of discipline to restrict calcium in their diets. They were eating a lot of calcium for a long period of time.

And only 3 patients presented clear magnesium deficiency. So, he dropped vitamin D dose and increased, even more, the Mag dose... some months later the side effects disappeared. After that, he increased simultaneously both vitamin D + Mag doses without any health issue.


At the clinic, I met a patient with Devic's disease that takes 500,000 IU D3/day. The highest dose that I ever seen. He is following it by 7 months and he is doing fine. Any side effect till now.


To cover another point of view I also talked with another doctor of Coimbra Protocol from another state. She helped me a lot when my brother was diagnosed in 2015.

She has +700 patients and she said that till now 23 patients had hypercalcemia (7 bcs of diet and 16 bcs of previous kidney problems). And only 5 patients had clear symptoms of Magnesium deficiency. She followed the same process - increased the Mag dose and decreased Vit D, then some months later all the symptoms disappeared. After that, she increased again both Vit D + Magnesium simultaneously.

Most of the people with previous kidney deficiency that both doctors quoted had ''Lupus nephritis'' for some time. Lupus nephritis causes inflammation of the small blood vessels that filter wastes in our kidney and sometimes the kidneys, by attacking them like they would attack a disease

One doctor also said that Dr. Coimbra guides +4,800 patients in his clinic and a lot of more patients worldwide through other doctors. Magnesium deficiency is very rare in his patients. Of course, it can happen but is rare.

They are treating more than +35 autoimmune diseases now.



Furthermore, my brother is doing hypnotherapy at the OMNI School of Hypnosis (Gerald Kein style) and he is really enjoying it. According to him it effectively lowered his stress. They have a lot of experience with MS patients (https://omnihypnosis.com/)

My brother also did Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT) but he preferred hypnosis. Although CBT can also be combined with Hypnosis with even faster results [1].

The hypnotist recorded the Dave Elman Induction for Self-Hypnosis to use day by day at home. I already listened to dozens of self-hypnosis, guided meditations, and NLP inductions, but it was the most relaxing induction ever. I also used it and never relaxed so well with self-hypnosis.


[1] https://www.hypnotherapists.org.uk/1640 ... h-snippet/
Last edited by AntonioBR on Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jimmylegs
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by jimmylegs » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:15 pm

let me guess, they use the bottom end of a really accurate :roll: reference range, before something counts as a 'clear' magnesium deficiency issue. typical.
too bad for the hundreds of patients out there, who aren't even getting that paltry level of attention to detail.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

AntonioBR
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by AntonioBR » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:50 pm

jimmylegs wrote:let me guess, they use the bottom end of a really accurate :roll: reference range, before something counts as a 'clear' magnesium deficiency issue. typical.

Jimmy, with all due respect


At least, they are getting results... And they are helping a lot of people.

You talk as you already know the best thing to do.

Dr. Michael Holick from Boston College often analyses Coimbra patients data and he's approving the whole process.

If I'm not wrong you only have 3 experiences about Mag deficiency and you're jumping to the conclusion that they are wrong following this process. (Presumingly that you are right about Mag deficiency because it is difficult to measure)

Your data and experience are a lot smaller than theirs.

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jimmylegs
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by jimmylegs » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:15 pm

sadly, it seems they don't even realize what they're not noticing. time will tell. hopefully without too much unnecessary suffering.

the handful of experiences shared in this topic are not 'mine' and hardly represent the density of d3 overdosing encountered over time on this forum.
even those merely exemplify a serious problem with magnesium assessment that's thoroughly discussed in the peer reviewed academic literature, to the world health organization level. and no, i don't mean that we shouldn't be using serum magnesium.

i still look forward to truly long term, large 'n' research findings. in the meantime i struggle even to find any research on topics such as d3 balance including excretion among high dosing patients. beyond the purely economic considerations, one hint of potential consequences seemingly altogether ignored to date:

Soft-tissue mineralization of bullfrog larvae (Rana catesbeiana) at a wastewater treatment facility.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20622246
"... Affected tadpoles had elevated cholecalciferol (25-OH-vitamin D3) levels. ... To date, the primary cause of elevated cholecalciferol is undetermined."

wonder what other interesting unknown unknowns might be floating around under the radar, whether internally in patients or out in the wider environment. but we can always worry about those later!

haha - entirely different context, but some fun and transferable sentences in this conference paper's intro:

Characterizing unknown unknowns
https://www.pmi.org/learning/library/ch ... nowns-6077
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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jimmylegs
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by jimmylegs » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:53 am

@dlynn, any updates?
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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dlynn
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Re: Joint and Muscle pain while on the Vitamin D Protocol

Post by dlynn » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:01 am

Hi everyone,
An update, I switched from Vitamin D gelcaps which are liquid inside to a capsule that is powder with no other ingredients, only
Vit.D. At the same time, I added Magnesium Glycinate 300 mg(capsule form, no other ingredients). There was a noticeable improvement in my joint and muscle pain. I was not sure if it was the different Vit.D, or was it the added Magnesium that resulted in an improvement with pain...until I ran out of Vit.D (powder) capsule form, I started taking the leftover gelcaps and the pain returned. I'll continue taking the Magnesium, but will reorder the Vit.D capsules. I emailed my protocol Dr. yesterday. I will wait for his reply and any of your thoughts or suggestions are truly appreciated. Thank you jimmylegs, Kittie...I didn't know how important magnesium is.
Thank you all

dlynn

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