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A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.
malden

Post by malden »

Jugular wrote:... I was using a fluid dynamics concept.
Hm... your "fluid dynamics concept" is not what I know about fluid dynamic.
Try to lern some more... Here is interesting site about hemodynamic:

"Cardiovascular Physiology Concepts" by Richard E. Klabunde, PhD:
http://www.cvphysiology.com/index.html

Resistance to Blood Flow
Jugular wrote:...The arteries are not connected to the veins.
Yes, they are ;) artery - arterioles - capillaries - venules - vein:

Systemic Circulation

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Best regards, M.
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Jugular
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Post by Jugular »

Malden wrote: Hm... your "fluid dynamics concept" is not what I know about fluid dynamic.

Sure it is. Just think of "back pressure" as Resistance. Remember, blood flow and fluid flow are subject to the same laws of physics. Using the same source you helpfully brought to my attention:
Hemodynamics can be defined as the physical factors that govern blood flow. These are the same physical factors that govern the flow of any fluid, and are based on a fundamental law of physics, namely Ohm's Law, which states that current (I) equals the voltage difference (ΔV) divided by resistance (R). In relating Ohm's Law to fluid flow, the voltage difference is the pressure difference (ΔP; sometimes called driving pressure, perfusion pressure, or pressure gradient), the resistance is the resistance to flow (R) offered by the blood vessel and its interactions with the flowing blood, and the current is the blood flow (F).
What I was trying to explain with the disconnect betwwen arteries and veins is that one delivers fuel and the other exhaust or oxygen-depleted fuel. I was thinking that this could help explain why increased arterial blood pressure does not seem to be related to obstructed veins, but maybe it can't. Occluded areries cause high blood pressure, perhaps veins don't. Help me out here!

Apart from that, a downstrem narrowing in the jugulars would cause increased R upstream and that could easily cause hypoperfusion as modeled in CCSVI.
malden

Post by malden »

Jugular wrote: The easiest way that I can think of to explain it is to think of a syringe without a needle on it compared to one with. The increased resistance that you feel on your thumb whilst pushing the plunger down with the one with a needle - that’s back pressure.
Difference in empting syringe with and without a needle is only in the exit cross section:

Case 1, pushing the plunger with the same force:
Exit flow velocities (v) are the same, outflow (Q) is smaller with a needle because of smaller orifice cross section (A): Q=v*A. Smaller outflow increase time to empty syringe.

Case 2, empting syringes in the same time:
In a syringe with a needle you must to increase pressure (force*plunger_cross_section) to increase exit flow velocity (v), to increase outflow Q.

The increased resistance that you feel on your thumb whilst pushing the plunger down with the one with a needle is caused by increased force that you used to push plunger (action - reaction law), not hydraulic "back pressure":

Newton's third law of motion:
"To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions."
Jugular wrote: Sure it is. Just think of "back pressure" as Resistance.
Resistence is resistance to flow (tube convergence, divergence, turns, surface roughness and other physical properties will cause resistance to flow and affect the pressure drop - decrease in pressure from one point in a pipe or tube to another point downstream as the result of frictional forces on the fluid as it flows through the tube). No flow - no resistence!

And a pressure drop always affects the downstream flow, and never upstream flow.
So, "back pressure" is misleading term for something affecting upstream flow. But if you think of a local turbulences, all kind of the flow will happened there, back, front, up, down, left, right... but the river still flow downstream - to the sea ;)
M.
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Post by Jugular »

I seem to be getting a lot of back pressure from you over the use of a common fluid dynamics term - or perhaps it would be more accurate for me to say "resistance". :wink:

Given the pulsating nature of venous flow, do you think an IJV stenosis could cause a fluid hammer?

Lastly, considering Poiseuille's law don't you think that a stenosis of one or both of the IJV's might impair the brain's ability to vent spent blood?

Moreover, using what you know about hemodynamics, how would you explain how these stenoses might cause MS lesions?
malden

Post by malden »

Jugular wrote:Given the pulsating nature of venous flow, do you think an IJV stenosis could cause a fluid hammer?
Venous blood returning from the systemic capillaries is nonpulsatile.

Changes in flow and pressure caused by skeletal muscles and respiratory pump are nonsynchronous with the pulsatile activity of the heart.

Changes in flow and pressure caused by right atrial and ventricular fillingl, however, produce pulsations in the central veins that are transmitted toward the peripheral veins, opposite to the direction of blood flow.

With the possible exception of the "c" wave, which is the combined result of carotid arterial impact and upward movement of the tricuspid valve, the pulsations observed in the neck are produced by right atria and ventricular activity.

(Cited from here:http://www.rjmatthewsmd.com/Definitions ... _pulse.htm)

Posible fluid (blood) hammer can be when the flow is sharply interrupted and a fluid in motion is forced to stop or change direction suddenly (momentum change).
Lastly, considering Poiseuille's law don't you think that a stenosis of one or both of the IJV's might impair the brain's ability to vent spent blood?
Poiseuille's law is about laminar flow in circular tubs: the liquid in the center is moving fastest while the liquid touching the walls of the tube is stationary (due to friction). I don't get how stenosis fit in this?
Moreover, using what you know about hemodynamics, how would you explain how these stenoses might cause MS lesions?
That's the problem to me to: I try hard to find explanation to myself, but I can't :(
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