Think Twice if you have mild MS

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.
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1eye
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Post by 1eye »

Lyon wrote: Have you actually heard the specific terms and conditions of the trial mentioned by the Premier of Saskatchewan? While every phase of a clinical trial....even "phase IV" after public release is considered a safety phase, perhaps mistakenly, I'd gotten the idea that the current goal was to determine if there really is a unique relationship between MS and CCSVI and not so much specifically safety.
"Research Foundation CEO Judy Bold says the funding will allow them to explore important questions about the treatment, like whether or not it's safe and if it actually works.

"There is evolving evidence, the science is moving forward very quickly but right now what's really needed is more research that it is definitely safe and effective," she said. "
...that the safest and most efficacious venography procedures should then be isolated as well as determining the safest and most efficacious way to keep the veins open and all those steps likely will have their own specific safety phases.
I once heard about a prof. who said people are either "Lumpers" or "Stringers". I know! Let's find the most strung-out and expensive way to do it!
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Post by scorpion »

Lyon wrote:
1eye wrote:A couple of things have occurred to me that may not have magically appeared in the minds of our genius skeptics (who are, after all, only interested in your welfare):
This is a great day in history! Thank you 1eye for finally giving credit where credit is due!

That wasn't so bad was it? And you have the satisfaction of knowing that you've made my ilk very happy today :)
:)
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Post by 1eye »

facetiousness

From facetious +‎ -ness
Noun

facetiousness (usually uncountable; plural facetiousnesses)

1. (uncountable) The state of being facetious
2. (countable) The product or result of being facetious.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D :) :) :) 8)
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Post by Lyon »

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Last edited by Lyon on Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CureIous
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Post by CureIous »

I'm just wondering why Lyon and his contigent don't start their own thread instead of overpopulating this one, which to my view wasn't listed, "anything the so called skeptics want to say right here".

I mean, if you were even adding one thing that hasn't been stated 10k times here already thats one thing. Familiar drumbeats tend not to qualify for on topic discussion.

Apparently now, and getting back to the original thread, we are taking 3 day results as evidence pro/con or otherwise, while fairly leapfrogging over the 1 year + people such as myself and having no comment whatsoever, then neatly categorizing people into placebo/nocebo, and the great part is, now we are offering medical advice on the board by way of what to NOT do also. I didn't realize this was an all you can eat skeptics buffet, but please, fire at will, and never ever let any bad news go to waste.

To the original poster back 4 pages, keep your chin up, give it some time. Don't always assume the worst because your particular mileage tended to vary. All we can do is report where we are at and what we are doing to the best of our current knowledge. The rest is pure politics and guesswork, along with grandstanding, petard hoisting and canard casting.

Most of all, keep us informed, sorry your thread got hijacked but it happens here quite frequently when people are too *shy* to just come out and say what they want to say (in their own thread) and be done with it already.

Mark
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Post by ikulo »

CureIous wrote:
Apparently now, and getting back to the original thread, we are taking 3 day results as evidence pro/con or otherwise, while fairly leapfrogging over the 1 year + people such as myself and having no comment whatsoever, then neatly categorizing people into placebo/nocebo, and the great part is, now we are offering medical advice on the board by way of what to NOT do also. I didn't realize this was an all you can eat skeptics buffet, but please, fire at will, and never ever let any bad news go to waste.

Mark
We're not giving evidence of pro or con. The original poster, along with a few other people and I, commented on our own personal negative experiences. We're not trying to "leapfrog" those with 1 year under their belts, and certainly not trying to prove anything. We're just trying to keep it fair and balanced. Those about to undergo a procedure should be aware of everything.
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Post by Cece »

ikulo, I looked back over the thread, your contributions were not the problem, thank you for sharing your outcome. We need to hear all sides.

The original caution was that people with mild MS should think twice before having this procedure. As a person with supposedly mild MS (but where does disabling fatigue fit in that descriptor?), this is a topic I am interested in. Early reports were that people with relapsing remitting MS fared the best after the venoplasty procedure. This holds up logically too, that there is an accumulation of lesions and damage done to neurons as the disease marches on, so better results if the plumbing is fixed early, before the neurological damage accumulates. We have had stories of this too: the "I no longer have MS" group. If those statements hold up over time, that's amazing.

We are still learning about the risks of this procedure. I can see the argument that if anyone can afford to wait, it'd be the people with mild ms, and that so much progress has been made in the last six months that more progress will be made in the next six months. I'm tired of waiting, but I can see the argument.
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Post by dunkempt »

I can see the argument that if anyone can afford to wait, it'd be the people with mild ms, and that so much progress has been made in the last six months that more progress will be made in the next six months. I'm tired of waiting, but I can see the argument.
Like Cece, I can see this, and I had mild ms for 20 years before my treatment... But either way you're taking a risk: if we assume there's a good chance that angioplasty might stop the progress of the disease (and if we don't, why have this thread?) then why wait until this unpredictable disease is no longer mild?

In my case, after 20 very mild years, the bulk of my noticeable neurological damage happened in the 18 months before treatment. Probably I get to have those impairments forever now. Had it been possible to stop it 18 months earlier, I might still be able to pronounce my son's name properly.

I'm not saying wait or don't wait; but I would say "How much worse do you want to be before you stop waiting?"

Of course, I have had very good results from my treatment; I'm not in the "I don't have MS anymore" group, but it's pretty damn good. Obviously that colours my thinking.

-d
dx rrms august 2009 (dx CFS spring 1988) off avonex after 3 months
treated katowice 24-25 march 2010 - best thing that ever happened - check tracking thread
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CureIous
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Post by CureIous »

Cece wrote:ikulo, I looked back over the thread, your contributions were not the problem, thank you for sharing your outcome. We need to hear all sides.

The original caution was that people with mild MS should think twice before having this procedure. As a person with supposedly mild MS (but where does disabling fatigue fit in that descriptor?), this is a topic I am interested in. Early reports were that people with relapsing remitting MS fared the best after the venoplasty procedure. This holds up logically too, that there is an accumulation of lesions and damage done to neurons as the disease marches on, so better results if the plumbing is fixed early, before the neurological damage accumulates. We have had stories of this too: the "I no longer have MS" group. If those statements hold up over time, that's amazing.

We are still learning about the risks of this procedure. I can see the argument that if anyone can afford to wait, it'd be the people with mild ms, and that so much progress has been made in the last six months that more progress will be made in the next six months. I'm tired of waiting, but I can see the argument.
Us early-going-inners were fortunate in a weird way, to have much less info to go on. While that can be criticized from a strictly "better to wait" angle, it also meant there was far far less noise to wade through. There were no incredible miraculous 3 days post-op stories, and not too much in the way of the opposite either. No press items, no youtube, just people on here and some stuff from Italy. That's it.
We went on the best available info and made our individual decisions. If I had to start now, I honestly wouldn't know what to think. If you are convinced this is The Answer, you can spend all your time bolstering that POV. If you are skeptical, you can do likewise, plenty of info to choose from.
While warnings aren't exactly scarce nowadays, they are there and should be read right next to all the other info. This contention that somehow people are scared to post against the flow is ridiculous, there's been plenty of stories just on this board including a sticky dedicated to just that.

However, make no mistake about it, if I were doing it now, there's no way I'd be in the 30% thumbs down category post-op. (in my mind at least).

You raise an interesting dichotomy though. The very people who theoretically should wait, are the ones that %-wise are experiencing the most noticeable (and admittedly anectdotal and scientifically unmeasureable) benefits. Hope I shaded all the grey nuances correctly.

I would proffer that if someone cannot at a minimum explain said nuances from point A to B and all points in between, then perhaps they should wait. IOW if they are in possession of a lengthy mental checklist of every possible scenario and their practiced response to that, and have worked through every scenario to it's ultimate conclusion to the best of their ability, then they may be ready to take the plunge. If however someone is merely jumping on a plane to do this thing they read about and can't even begin to explain it (which requires a certain level of understanding), then perhaps they should put the brakes on for a bit. Especially early MS'ers, which admittedly I was myself.

When I went up to Stanford we had many hours to discuss these things in the car. There was all that "wow isn't this exciting?" discussions, followed by what we called "worst case scenarios", and yes, there was a list of those too. So yes, it's important to stay balanced and not ignore these seemingly negative findings, nor to overemphasize positive findings in the context of extremely short time spans either. Time will tell and it's in no rush unfortunately.

I do not envy people who are making these decisions now. Not at all.

Mark
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Post by Lyon »

.
Last edited by Lyon on Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Cece »

I think we should all be treating each other with respect and we'll be fine. Don't let anyone sit you on the back of the bus, but don't trample anyone either....

Lyon, I will try to be mindful of the point you raise, if someone goes against the flow but does it respectfully, I will do my best to support them and I hope others will as well.

CUREious, a few weeks ago I read the thread where cheer's husband was going to have the first CCSVI venoplasty in North America (and perhaps worldwide outside of Italy?). What a leap of faith in the research and the theory. We know now how well it turned out for them, but there was bravery in that action.

Even now, we are still going on the best available info and making our own decisions.

From my point of view, too, it is very odd to look at those beginning threads and realize there was hardly anybody here. The same names, again and again. And nearly any thought I've ever had about CCSVI, mrhodes or cheer already covered over a year ago. And peekaboo, whose personality came across so clearly, but had a tragic outcome. We have had tragedies since then too: the lady who posted in drsclafani's thread but could only be offered a spot on a waiting list, then she passed away during that wait. Clotted stents that leave a person worse than they began.

What we are doing here is big, we have a responsibility to do it well.
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Post by CCSVIhusband »

Just a reminder of the types of CCSVI ... I tend to forget myself. From Dr. Zamboni's paper ... (sorry this isn't really on topic)



Quote:
Normal) Exemplification of normal extracranial venous outflow direction. In
particular, the black arrows depict the drainage of the IJV system into the
SVC, and of the vertebral plexus (Vplex) outward from the spinal cord into the
azygous system (AZY).
• Type A (30%): This pattern is characterized by a steno-obstruction of the
proximal azygous, associated with a closed stenosis of one of the two IJVs
(red crosses). Reflux is always present, under all postural conditions, in
the stenosed IJV (red arrow), with a compensatory controlateral IJV that
appears with an ample CSA. Reflux in the DCVs was detected by the
means of TCCS in 60% of cases. In the azygous vein the reflux has an
effect as far as the lumbar veins, being able to re-enter the caval circle
either through the system of the hemiazygous vein- left renal vein, or by
rising again inside the rachis.
• Type B (38%): This pattern is characterized by significant stenoses of both
IJVs and the proximal azygous (red crosses). Reflux is present in all three
venous segments (red arrows). Cerebral venous outflow for overcoming
the IJVs stenosis re-enters the heart mainly through cervical collateral
circles (Fig. 1b); for the hampered azygous vein outflow, the collateral
circles include again the intra-rachidian pathway (Fig.3), or the system of
the renal-hemiazygous.
• Type C (14%): This pattern is characterized by bilateral stenosis in both
IJVs, with a normal azygous system (red crosses). Reflux (red arrows)
occurs in the IJVs but not in the VVs, with cervical or intracranial collateral
circles that shunt blood towards the superior vena cava or the azygous
vein system, respectively. The resulting overload of the azygous system is
depicted by black bold arrows.
• Type D (18%): In this pattern the azygous system was constantly affected
in various segments (red crosses), resulting in a forced venous drainage
towards the intrarachidian circles in an upward direction (red arrows)
(Fig.3). The vertebral veins appeared to be refluent, and the intracranial
collateral circles seek to gain the IJVs, as confirmed by reflux detection in
DCVs in 90% of cases. At times, the IJVs were also affected (6 cases,
50%), causing an additional obstruction in these patients.
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Post by scorpion »

CureIous wrote:I'm just wondering why Lyon and his contigent don't start their own thread instead of overpopulating this one, which to my view wasn't listed, "anything the so called skeptics want to say right here".

I mean, if you were even adding one thing that hasn't been stated 10k times here already thats one thing. Familiar drumbeats tend not to qualify for on topic discussion.

Apparently now, and getting back to the original thread, we are taking 3 day results as evidence pro/con or otherwise, while fairly leapfrogging over the 1 year + people such as myself and having no comment whatsoever, then neatly categorizing people into placebo/nocebo, and the great part is, now we are offering medical advice on the board by way of what to NOT do also. I didn't realize this was an all you can eat skeptics buffet, but please, fire at will, and never ever let any bad news go to waste.

To the original poster back 4 pages, keep your chin up, give it some time. Don't always assume the worst because your particular mileage tended to vary. All we can do is report where we are at and what we are doing to the best of our current knowledge. The rest is pure politics and guesswork, along with grandstanding, petard hoisting and canard casting.

Most of all, keep us informed, sorry your thread got hijacked but it happens here quite frequently when people are too *shy* to just come out and say what they want to say (in their own thread) and be done with it already.

Mark
CureIous I do not know what to take as evidence pro or con anymore. If I remember correctly the intial claim was that the liberation procedure gave immediate results. here are some quotes:


Dr. Diaz declares, "Liberation Treatment is a very simple medical procedure that provides immediate results in most patients.

The results from the heralded Kuwait study:

CCSVI: & M.S ---Results
All successful Angioplasty with satisfactory post balloon dilatation
No complications
All patients reported improvement ( 1 month) :Improvement or disappearance of Numbness
Loss of Fatigue and increased energy
Improvement of power (foot drop)
Improvement visual acuity (No blurred vision)
Reduced electrical sensation
Memory improvement


Zamboni scheduled immediate angioplasty surgery for ****. A catheter was inserted in one of the blood vessels of her groin; the catheter promptly made its way up to the blockages in her neck. A small balloon was then inflated and the blockage was cleared. The results were immediate and dramatic.

So I do not know what to believe. 1 minute, 1day, 1 month, 1 year. All these "time tables" and the same procedure.
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Post by fogdweller »

Cece wrote: As a person with supposedly mild MS (but where does disabling fatigue fit in that descriptor?), this is a topic I am interested in. Early reports were that people with relapsing remitting MS fared the best after the venoplasty procedure.
Also, disabling fatigue is reported to be one of the symptmoms most effective relieved. Plus if you've had it for 20 years you may be approaching progression time. It would be nice to stop the disease before progression started. I had it for 35 years, very mild but it had started progressing a bit faster. As one of the posts just above mine points out, if you can stop before significant progression that may be worth it.

I don't know your age, but I was getting to the point that if I waited another 10 years I would lose out on alot, just by age.

All tough decisiions. Added to the mix is how fast you think CCSVI treatment will become available if it is proven, and how fast will the parameters of good treatment be established.

No easy decisions. This thread supplies some support for holding off, but most of the others supply support for rushing ahead. Your call.
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Post by Cece »

fogdweller wrote:No easy decisions. This thread supplies some support for holding off, but most of the others supply support for rushing ahead. Your call.
I am rushing ahead, carefully....
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