Nigel,
The reason why there are so many different types of MS is because there are so many different variables. MS can be caused by chronic ischemia, chronic edema and poor CSF flow. It can be caused by acute violent venous reflux due to trauma such as whiplash causes immediate damage. On ther other hand it can be caused by chronic venous backups due to venous stenosis, or back pressure against the vertebral veins due disorders and degenerative conditions of the spine. It can also be caused by Chiari and pressure conus conditions that cause the brain to come in contact with the base of the skull or it can be caused by CSF backups. And that's the short list.
Your problem is you have lots of injuries and degeneration which can cause venous back pressure and hypertension around the cord. Venous back pressure reduces the pressure gradients needed for proper blood and CSF flow. On top of that you have low blood pressure. So your pressure gradient is further reduced. That means you most likely have more of an oxidative stress/chronic ischemia problem. Rereading the book helps. There is a lot more information in it than you realize. I sneak it in to your brain in the form of a story. As you know from reading the book, stories stimulates dopamine production which stimulates long term memory by the hippocampuhelps and other structures. You obviously remember quite a bit. Did you catch how I slipped in cellular memory in the last chapter?
CCSVI and CCVBP
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uprightdoc
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I am disturbed by this, you are speaking with authority and as a doctor, but the cause or causes of MS are currently unknown.uprightdoc wrote:Nigel,
The reason why there are so many different types of MS is because there are so many different variables. MS can be caused by chronic ischemia, chronic edema and poor CSF flow. It can be caused by acute violent venous reflux due to trauma such as whiplash causes immediate damage. On ther other hand it can be caused by chronic venous backups due to venous stenosis, or back pressure against the vertebral veins due disorders and degenerative conditions of the spine. It can also be caused by Chiari and pressure conus conditions that cause the brain to come in contact with the base of the skull or it can be caused by CSF backups. And that's the short list.
Cece, I understand your concern, for me its a learning curve, in the same way as the learning curve with CCSVI has grown in the last 12-18 months.
I think that there will aways be skeptics to new knowledge as we have seen the resistance by Neurologists.
Dr. F I am understanding more as time passes and I get familiar with your knowledge. I have always believed that there have been many false beliefs in MS knowledge and have worked to find the facts as the are presented. That is why I started my own Facebook site with others wanting to know more about vascular MS. http://www.facebook.com/pages/CCSVI-in- ... 984?ref=ts
I have found that there are many false trails in MS and too much time has been lost because of the Pharmaceutical Industry involvement for their purpose rather than the patients.
I find that I have good days where I can write and make sense and others where I can only just understand myself, you will have no doubt noticed my posts can be quite bazaar and disconnected, at the time it makes sense to me and then some days later I will reread what I have written and hold my head in shame for the person this disease has created. I digress.
The more I contemplate your knowledge the more I have little doubt that you are onto the many facets of this disease. Their need to be more people working with you on achieving the proof that is needed to write this in concrete. I hope that meeting Dr. Haacke will progress your quest. I have passed on to Arelene Hubbard to give to Dr. Hubbard some of your insights in the hope that the more MR specialists and thinkers outside the box with a passion for MS knowledge will start talking with you.
Thank you for your persistence over the years it must be so frustrating to have answers and no audience!
Regards Nigel
I think that there will aways be skeptics to new knowledge as we have seen the resistance by Neurologists.
Dr. F I am understanding more as time passes and I get familiar with your knowledge. I have always believed that there have been many false beliefs in MS knowledge and have worked to find the facts as the are presented. That is why I started my own Facebook site with others wanting to know more about vascular MS. http://www.facebook.com/pages/CCSVI-in- ... 984?ref=ts
I have found that there are many false trails in MS and too much time has been lost because of the Pharmaceutical Industry involvement for their purpose rather than the patients.
I find that I have good days where I can write and make sense and others where I can only just understand myself, you will have no doubt noticed my posts can be quite bazaar and disconnected, at the time it makes sense to me and then some days later I will reread what I have written and hold my head in shame for the person this disease has created. I digress.
The more I contemplate your knowledge the more I have little doubt that you are onto the many facets of this disease. Their need to be more people working with you on achieving the proof that is needed to write this in concrete. I hope that meeting Dr. Haacke will progress your quest. I have passed on to Arelene Hubbard to give to Dr. Hubbard some of your insights in the hope that the more MR specialists and thinkers outside the box with a passion for MS knowledge will start talking with you.
Thank you for your persistence over the years it must be so frustrating to have answers and no audience!
Regards Nigel
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uprightdoc
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Cece,
You are absolutely right. The cause is unknown and I never meant to imply it is but we have some pretty strong suspects. Some of the chief suspects are decreased arterial flow, decreased venous flow and decreased CSF flow. Violent venous back-jets and reflux of CSF through the subarachnoid space caused by trauma is another. The combination of decreased arterial and venous flow is simply that much more suspicious.
You are absolutely right. The cause is unknown and I never meant to imply it is but we have some pretty strong suspects. Some of the chief suspects are decreased arterial flow, decreased venous flow and decreased CSF flow. Violent venous back-jets and reflux of CSF through the subarachnoid space caused by trauma is another. The combination of decreased arterial and venous flow is simply that much more suspicious.
thanks, I am completely onboard with CCSVI and I do not understand CSF flow so not to agree or disagree with some of the ideas put forward there, but I think it's important to qualify the language (might, may be, believed to be, some pretty strong suspects, my understanding is...).uprightdoc wrote:Cece,
You are absolutely right. The cause is unknown and I never meant to imply it is but we have some pretty strong suspects. Some of the chief suspects are decreased arterial flow, decreased venous flow and decreased CSF flow. Violent venous back-jets and reflux of CSF through the subarachnoid space caused by trauma is another. The combination of decreased arterial and venous flow is simply that much more suspicious.
carry on....
Dr. flanagan,
Thank you. I will look at the SORSI website and let you know.
Regarding the spinal tap my daughter is on Tysabri which is the monthly treatment she has for her MS. Her neuro has said that she cannot have anymore infusions unless she has a spinal tap as Tysabri can cause PML which is a deadly brain condition. There have been about 64 cases to date and several deaths so far. I know she would much prefer to not have to go through another spinal tap(she had one 6 months ago) but it is supposed to be able to detect whether there is the JC virus in her body which might cause PML. Sadly this is a case where the medicine is worse than the illness and I would like nothing more than for her to be off of it as she has not seen any great improvements since being on it these past 6 months.
Drury
Thank you. I will look at the SORSI website and let you know.
Regarding the spinal tap my daughter is on Tysabri which is the monthly treatment she has for her MS. Her neuro has said that she cannot have anymore infusions unless she has a spinal tap as Tysabri can cause PML which is a deadly brain condition. There have been about 64 cases to date and several deaths so far. I know she would much prefer to not have to go through another spinal tap(she had one 6 months ago) but it is supposed to be able to detect whether there is the JC virus in her body which might cause PML. Sadly this is a case where the medicine is worse than the illness and I would like nothing more than for her to be off of it as she has not seen any great improvements since being on it these past 6 months.
Drury
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uprightdoc
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Drury,
According to Dr. Schelling, a leading expert on MS, there is very little evidence to support either the immunological or inflammation theories as to the cause of MS. Myelin basic protein shows up in CSF due to the breakdown of myelin. Gamma globulins that show up in CSF are immunogloblulins. One of the roles of immunoglobulins is to get rid of broken down parts such as myelin. In other words the immune system is not the cause of the problem. It is simply doing its job cleaning up debris.
So why dow we suppress it?
Your daughters symptoms started about a year after a serious accident that caused significant injuries to her brain. It also caused injuries to her musculoskeletal system. In medicolegal terms two things are important in establishing a connection. The first is the mechanism of injury has to make sense. In your daughter's case, getting hit by a car and thrown into the windshield and slammed on the ground makes sense as a mechanism of injury. The other issue is the timeline. In other words the problem has to start within in a certain time period after the accident. Again, your daughter's symptoms started about a year after which fits the bill perfectly.
In my book I discuss a case of MS that started immediatey after a severe whiplash injury. In fact, her signs and symptoms started as soon as she stepped out of the car and went rapidly downhill from there. Even so, the judge still woudn't buy it. What he did buy was the defense's arguement that the MS was caused by bladder infection due to common Candida Albicans, which is a yeast not a virus.
About a third of you who have contacted me have history's of significant oftentimes multiple trauma with obvious spondylosis (degeneration of the spine). It's time for the medical community to wake up. Trauma plays a major role in the cause of MS.
According to Dr. Schelling, a leading expert on MS, there is very little evidence to support either the immunological or inflammation theories as to the cause of MS. Myelin basic protein shows up in CSF due to the breakdown of myelin. Gamma globulins that show up in CSF are immunogloblulins. One of the roles of immunoglobulins is to get rid of broken down parts such as myelin. In other words the immune system is not the cause of the problem. It is simply doing its job cleaning up debris.
So why dow we suppress it?
Your daughters symptoms started about a year after a serious accident that caused significant injuries to her brain. It also caused injuries to her musculoskeletal system. In medicolegal terms two things are important in establishing a connection. The first is the mechanism of injury has to make sense. In your daughter's case, getting hit by a car and thrown into the windshield and slammed on the ground makes sense as a mechanism of injury. The other issue is the timeline. In other words the problem has to start within in a certain time period after the accident. Again, your daughter's symptoms started about a year after which fits the bill perfectly.
In my book I discuss a case of MS that started immediatey after a severe whiplash injury. In fact, her signs and symptoms started as soon as she stepped out of the car and went rapidly downhill from there. Even so, the judge still woudn't buy it. What he did buy was the defense's arguement that the MS was caused by bladder infection due to common Candida Albicans, which is a yeast not a virus.
About a third of you who have contacted me have history's of significant oftentimes multiple trauma with obvious spondylosis (degeneration of the spine). It's time for the medical community to wake up. Trauma plays a major role in the cause of MS.
Dr. Flanagan,
I am a late comer to this thread but want to welcome you. Different perspectives and insight are helpful. I had the liberation procedure about a year ago. I had a problem with my azygous and a valve problem in my left IJV below the clavicle which were both stented. My MRIs never seemed to indicate inflammation just chronic type lesions. My MS never followed a RR course. The immediate results were improved energy, better sleep, fewer migraines which were of the variety that would start on one side of my neck and spread to my face and behind my ear and eye. Just nagging type pain that would interfere with my ability to sleep. Some of my symptoms have slowly returned. I have major balance problems. After reading about the sx of tos I'm beginning to wonder if I should be checked for this. On occasion I have pain in my right ear (cartilage of the ear). While I don't seem to suffer from spaticity, my hand writing (right-handed) is much worse to the point I avoid writing if possible. I have pain in my right shoulder (nagging). My ms started as postpartum optic neuritis and I was asymptomatic for 14 years and have gradualy worsened to the point that I am a self assesed 6.5 EDSS. My 22 year old daughter in the past year had a bout with pp optic neuritis. I and my daughter played sports and were physically active. She has had her share of sports-related injuries as have I. I was just wondering if chiropratic evaluation might be in order for both of us. Did my daughter inherit her body build from me? Your thoughts?
I am a late comer to this thread but want to welcome you. Different perspectives and insight are helpful. I had the liberation procedure about a year ago. I had a problem with my azygous and a valve problem in my left IJV below the clavicle which were both stented. My MRIs never seemed to indicate inflammation just chronic type lesions. My MS never followed a RR course. The immediate results were improved energy, better sleep, fewer migraines which were of the variety that would start on one side of my neck and spread to my face and behind my ear and eye. Just nagging type pain that would interfere with my ability to sleep. Some of my symptoms have slowly returned. I have major balance problems. After reading about the sx of tos I'm beginning to wonder if I should be checked for this. On occasion I have pain in my right ear (cartilage of the ear). While I don't seem to suffer from spaticity, my hand writing (right-handed) is much worse to the point I avoid writing if possible. I have pain in my right shoulder (nagging). My ms started as postpartum optic neuritis and I was asymptomatic for 14 years and have gradualy worsened to the point that I am a self assesed 6.5 EDSS. My 22 year old daughter in the past year had a bout with pp optic neuritis. I and my daughter played sports and were physically active. She has had her share of sports-related injuries as have I. I was just wondering if chiropratic evaluation might be in order for both of us. Did my daughter inherit her body build from me? Your thoughts?
Again I am in the role of a hopefully respectful skeptic. I am aware of the irony....
http://www.neurology.org/content/43/10/1878.abstractTrauma and multiple sclerosis
A population‐based cohort study from Olmsted County, Minnesota
A. Siva, MD, K. Radhakrishnan, MD, L. T. Kurland, MD, DrPH, P. C. O'Brien, PhD, J. W. Swanson, MD and M. Rodriguez, MD
Abstract
Utilizing the Olmsted County, Minnesota, population-based records-linkage resource at Mayo Clinic, we identified an incidence and a prevalence cohort with multiple sclerosis (MS), a head injury cohort, and a lumbar disk surgery cohort to evaluate the association between mechanical trauma and MS onset or exacerbation. The MS cohorts consisted of 225 incidence cases (1905 to 1991) and 164 prevalence cases (December 1, 1991) of definite MS in the population of Olmsted County. We assessed the effect of mechanical trauma in the form of spinal injury or extremity fracture with regard to precipitation of MS or exacerbation of an existing neurologic deficit. Fifty-four episodes of trauma, as defined, occurred among 39 MS prevalence cases; most occurred 10 years or more after the onset of disease and were associated with existing MS-related disability. We compared the final disability status of the groups with and without trauma. We found no correlation between the occurrence of peripheral fractures and the onset of MS, exacerbation of MS, or final disability due to MS in the prevalence cohort. In a cohort of 819 head injury cases from the Olmsted County population, none developed MS within 6 months of the trauma. In a lumbar disk surgery cohort of 942 local residents, there were five with MS, but onset of MS had preceded the spinal surgery in four of the five. Thus, we found no association of head injury and spinal disk surgery with onset of MS.
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uprightdoc
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Cece,
Those studies are ancient. As Nigel can attest to, I discuss them thoroughly in my book. I don't have the space to go into it here. Basically, the cohorts they chose to study were highly irrelevant and biologically implausible. It would be better if you read the whole study, not just the summary.
Those studies are ancient. As Nigel can attest to, I discuss them thoroughly in my book. I don't have the space to go into it here. Basically, the cohorts they chose to study were highly irrelevant and biologically implausible. It would be better if you read the whole study, not just the summary.
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uprightdoc
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Hello Coach,
You and your daughter make number 4 of the women who have reported to me that they developed post partum MS. Delivery causes extreme Valsalva maneuvers and subsequent back pressure against the vertebral veins. Some also have low blood pressure.
Brain blood flow is determined by cerebral perfussion pressure which is the difference between arterial pressure going in and venous pressure going out of the brain. Delivery can therefore reduce brain blood flow and disturb cranial hydrodynamics.
Your daughter inherited many things from you. It could be body type. It could be circulatory layout. It could be both. It is certainly worth getting your neck checked out. It can only further improve brain blood flow, venous drainage and cranial hydrodynamics.
Did you or your daughter have ON in one or both eyes? If one, which side? Do either you or your daughter have high or low blood pressure? Do either of you have curvature problems such as scoliosis?
You and your daughter make number 4 of the women who have reported to me that they developed post partum MS. Delivery causes extreme Valsalva maneuvers and subsequent back pressure against the vertebral veins. Some also have low blood pressure.
Brain blood flow is determined by cerebral perfussion pressure which is the difference between arterial pressure going in and venous pressure going out of the brain. Delivery can therefore reduce brain blood flow and disturb cranial hydrodynamics.
Your daughter inherited many things from you. It could be body type. It could be circulatory layout. It could be both. It is certainly worth getting your neck checked out. It can only further improve brain blood flow, venous drainage and cranial hydrodynamics.
Did you or your daughter have ON in one or both eyes? If one, which side? Do either you or your daughter have high or low blood pressure? Do either of you have curvature problems such as scoliosis?
There is a selection bias here: they'd be more likely to contact you because they have these issues.uprightdoc wrote:About a third of you who have contacted me have history's of significant oftentimes multiple trauma with obvious spondylosis (degeneration of the spine).
You are very welcome here on this site, I hope you know. I am trying to make sure your case is not overstated.
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uprightdoc
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Cece,
I tried to find the exact study online for you but couldn't so I will see if I can insert the url correctly to an article in AJCC in 2002.
There was a bias in case selection in this study for a good reason. It was done specifically to focus on the potential causal relationship between hyperflexion-hyperextension (whiplash) injuries of the cervical spine in multiple sclerosis. Unfortunately, it only discusses Dr. Poser's theory, not Dr. Schelling's but it also discusses studies going back many years if you care to study the subject further.
http://www.idealspine.com/pages/ajcc/aj ... plash.html[/url]
I tried to find the exact study online for you but couldn't so I will see if I can insert the url correctly to an article in AJCC in 2002.
There was a bias in case selection in this study for a good reason. It was done specifically to focus on the potential causal relationship between hyperflexion-hyperextension (whiplash) injuries of the cervical spine in multiple sclerosis. Unfortunately, it only discusses Dr. Poser's theory, not Dr. Schelling's but it also discusses studies going back many years if you care to study the subject further.
http://www.idealspine.com/pages/ajcc/aj ... plash.html[/url]
Cece, I can help with what the Dr is saying here. I will have to do it later though, I have some commitments this morning.
While it is fresh in my mind I will add that Dr. S has said you can look at the rings on Saturn with a pair of binoculars or a telescope. One will give more detail.
The cohorts that have MS, and the health system and cost of appointments/consultations are an important factor, and the structure of the health system.
To study the records of MSers first and then a larger demographic would identify criteria for study factors for research.
Principally the epidemiological studies are not valid for this type of study and I will find and give quotes later.
There is a huge difference between risk, co-incidence, and cause factors in studies and this type of study is misleading and comes up with false assumptions. Eg Auto-Immune system involvement in MS. What is Auto-immune? What is immune involvement after a previous/pre-leading breach of the BBB? Is there a difference between laymen terms and scientific terminology?
Later, Nigel
While it is fresh in my mind I will add that Dr. S has said you can look at the rings on Saturn with a pair of binoculars or a telescope. One will give more detail.
The cohorts that have MS, and the health system and cost of appointments/consultations are an important factor, and the structure of the health system.
To study the records of MSers first and then a larger demographic would identify criteria for study factors for research.
Principally the epidemiological studies are not valid for this type of study and I will find and give quotes later.
There is a huge difference between risk, co-incidence, and cause factors in studies and this type of study is misleading and comes up with false assumptions. Eg Auto-Immune system involvement in MS. What is Auto-immune? What is immune involvement after a previous/pre-leading breach of the BBB? Is there a difference between laymen terms and scientific terminology?
Later, Nigel