CCSVI and CCVBP

[DrKoontzDC]

Dear Dr. Flanagan,
Haven't been on internet in a while but to do data entry for my husband. I am going for my first visit with a chiro on Friday. I guess that visit will involve x-rays and we will go from there. I did get some relief in some symptoms when I had stent in my azygous and LIJV but have still had to contend with balance and walking issues. Have had several falls in the last 2 years with the most recent being a fall down 6 stairs ( kind of head over heels fall) So I am thinking that I should be checked out. Just not encouraged with my lack of progress and have seemed to back up in some areas. I was encouraged to read about Blossom's and Poet's progress. I think the chiro I am seeing may be a general chiro if there is such a thing rather than an upper cervical chiro. Not knowing if I have problems and if I do where they are I'm wondering if you have any recommendations for an upper cervical chiro in either the Atlanta, Ga area or Macon, GA area. Atlanta is 3 hrs. away and Macon an hour and half away. I know this a little far south but if anyone would know you would. Also what tests would you recommend I ask for. My apologies Poet for ending a sentence with a preposition.

Hello Coach,

Just thought to let you know that I went to school at Life University in Marietta GA so I know quite a few Upper Cervical Chiropractors in the Atlanta and surrounding areas so if you do find yourself in need of another Upper Cervical Chiropractor let me know and I can make a few suggestions for you.

[DrKoontzDC]

(For those who don't know, NUCCA stands for National Upper Cervical Chiropractic Association and there are only 21 in the United States if my sources are correct). Very gentle, as I understand, with no cracking or twisting!

Lady Gazelle

Dear Lady Gazelle,

While there may only be 21 listed in their directory I can assure you there are many more out there who are certified NUCCA chiropractors who choose for one reason or another not to be apart of the NUCCA association.

[DrKoontzDC]

Hello Dr.Flanagan,

I wonder if wearing (high heels) constantly, or the dangerous games, may causing damage in the head, neck, spine, and that may affect the ischemic brain?

Hello sara-sama,

As Dr. Flanagan already pointed out the rollercoaster rides you refer to as "Dangerous Games" do indeed cause spinal problems and are associated with whiplash and other neck related injuries. Regarding wearing High heels, they most certainly do cause a problem with the spine. Wearing a heel of any kind forces the top of the pelvis to rotate anteriorly and the bottom of the pelvis to be pushed posteriorly all in an unnatural position which causes a chain reaction in the rest of the spine forcing it to compensate for the change in the position of the pelvis. High heels can also cause the calf muscles to shorten due to the position they are placed in. People wearing high heels should take care to not wear them often and make sure to do calf stretches on a regular basis so your legs don't feel painful when wearing flat shoes or shoes with less of a heel.

[DrKoontzDC]

Hello Dr.

I wondered if you might have a suggestion for someone trustworthy who knows proper upper cervical techniques in or near the St. Louis, MO area?

Thanks,
SaintLouis

Dear SaintLouis,

I also used to attend Logan Chiropractic College in Chesterfield MO before making the decision to move to Life University. As I mentioned to Coach, if you find you are unsatisfied with the Upper Cervical Chiropractor you are seeing I can recommend a few in the area as well. Two Upper Cervical Chiropractors come to mind there that I know personally.

http://www.atlasinstituteofhealth.com/

http://www.capegirardeauchiropractic.com/

[DrKoontzDC]

when i mentioned that i would be going for nucca if he can get me straightened out somewhat he said i could go while i am going to him. i don't know about that-got any thoughts? although fatigue isn't my main issue, i'd find that tough right now.

Hello Blossom,

Not sure if Dr. Flanagan would agree with me on this or not but I would not recommend going to both at the same time. The reason I say this is because when you are under Specific Upper Cervical Care the body may begin to make changes to the spine which could cause some areas of your body to be sore. The soreness, if it occurs, shouldn't be looked upon as a bad thing but rather as a positive thing and a sign that your body is making changes in the right direction as it fixes itself. If you go to the non-Upper Cervical guy and you tell him about these other aches and pains he may do some work on you that could be counterproductive to your Upper Cervical adjustment especially if he does any work at all in your cervical spine.

[DrKoontzDC]

Hi Dr,
A question, can touch testing for muscle stresses be enough to test for alignment of Atlas and upper spine?
When John checks my alignment, I am lying face down on the table. He starts at the tail bone and is gently putting one hand on the spine, pressing lightly and working upwards to feel for muscle tension. He works up to the base of my neck in this way and it takes only a minute or so. Then I am asked to sit on the end on the table and he slightly has me tilt forward my head. He then checks by touch the tension in my neck with slight rotations side to side of my head. Again this takes only seconds. In effect the 'test takes only a minute or two.
If there are any adjustments required he does them with the activator as he goes up the spine testing for muscle tension which I can feel when he finds a tension spot.
At present I have lost faith in the work he is doing and there is a break period of about three weeks over the Xmas/new year period before I return for treatment.
I do not feel any benefit from the adjustments he has done, in general I have had more tension in areas after adjustments have been made and this wears off, to be back to 'normal' after a day or two. So I am thinking either there is other problems or missed problems.
Any insights or questions or advice?
Regards Nigel.

Hello Nigel,

Your chiropractor is not doing any type of upper cervical work that I am familiar with. He said he uses toggle recoill which is not an upper cervical method but a method of delivery. For example, I was taught knee chest upper cervical using toggle recoil. Other methods use toggle recoil or variations of it. So far the doctor has done nothing even remotely resembling upper cervical methods of correction. Upper cervical doctors don't use the activator hammer on the upper cervical spine. Personally, although I had one, I don't like the activator or activator methods for any part of the spine. The problem is that you are not being treated with upper cervical care so there is no way to determine its effectiveness.

Hello Nzer,

I just wanted to add my 2 cents to this. I believe from what you've posted here that your Chiropractor has good intentions and genuinely wants to help you it appears to me that he has misled you slightly. From the sound of what you described he is following a strict Activator protocol and doing a finishing touch on your Atlas. This is unfortunate but a good lesson for others reading this. Not all chiropractors use the same technique and by now most of you here know there are several different Upper Cervical Techniques as well. However, the thing to take away from this is that an Upper Cervical Chiropractor is specially trained in their Upper Cervical technique on how to evaluate the Upper Cervical spine for misalignments, how to best correct those misalignments and how to determine when an adjustment is necessary.

Chiropractors who are considered to be full spine chiropractors do not have these same qualifications and while they say they can do Upper Cervical work because they perform and adjustment on the atlas or axis they are not lying or intentionally misleading you because they honestly believe the work they are doing is the same but it is not. If it were there wouldn't be a distinction amongst the profession between the 2. Everything involved in doing Specific Upper Cervical work, from taking the x-rays, analyzing the x-rays and the thermography or other methods used to determine if an adjustment is necessary is just that, Specific.

I understand that Upper Cervical chiropractors are in short supply, especially throughout Europe so beggars can't be choosers. I would suggest that you do what you can to encourage your Chiropractor to brush up on his delivery of a toggle recoil and request that he start using it on you while following a strict, specific set of Upper Cervical guidelines and for you to do what you can to get those Specific Upper Cervical x-rays taken.

[NZer1]

John used a table with drop headpiece, I was positioned on my right side and he used his hand below my left ear to do the adjustments.The challenge for my mind at present is two fold.
Firstly I have three areas of disc de generation, and loss of disc space. This cannot be helping alignment, and this will have been happening over long periods of time. The ability to get these discs to function and hold correct alignment is of interest.

John may be using Blair upper cervical but using a drop headpiece by itself does not mean he is. It's the listing and how you use the drop piece that matters. Your disc degeneration does contribute to your misalignment but it is not that advanced. The primary goal of Blair upper cervical is to realign the foramen magnum and spinal canal. Restoring the balance of a ten to fourteen pound ball on top or the neck, however, decreases the abnormal load bearing forces acting on the cartilage and connective tisses futher below all the way down the spine. Aligning the upper cervical spine also takes the pressure off the vertebral veins, the vertebral arteries and the subarachnoid space passing through the foramen magnum and into the spinal canal. Your neck is considerably forward of the gravity line. That puts stress on the cord and circulatory systems of the brain and cord. I sympathize with your frustration.

Hi Dr.s. I had a very productive phone call from John today.
Dr.F, John trained at the same school as you. (He is going to the Symposium the College is having early this year). I get the feeling he is not confident he can re-align my upper spine. He is going to ask through the Chiro Network web link here in NZ to search for some one with the specific training and skills.
Can you tell me what is the name of the specific xrays I need to ask a Radiologist for, to assess my spine. John was not sure what you or a Specialist would require, he thought a 'Blair' xray ?
Dr. F, I have read your pieces on Chari Malformations and would like to know what is the approach that the 'Medical Profession' would normally take for the patient. How would they come to the dx? What tests would they do to confirm the condition? How would they treat the condition? I am thinking that they don't have the same views as you?
I am thinking that my alignment problem is like a mild example based mostly on my symptoms/ MS.

[uprightdoc]

Hello Nigel,
Different upper cervical doctors use different x-rays. I was trained to use AP and Lateral, open mouth odontoid and base posterior. Some methods such as NUCCA use nasium views rather that open mouth odontoid and and some use vertex in lieu of base posterior. Some methods use steroscopic x-rays.

Chirai malformations are diagnosed by brain scans looking for herniation of the brainstem (cerebellum) into the foramen magnum. More recently the term Zero Chiari has been used to describe a Chiari malformation causing brainstem compression without decent into the foramen magnum. There are also functional Chiari malformations due to abnormal axial-clival angles between the base of the skull and upper cervical spine. I a functional Chiari the brain comes in contact with the base of the skull during neck flexion. Neurosurgeons do decompession surgery in the upper cervical spine and base of the skull to create more space. If the Chiari is caused by a tethered cord they cut the filum terminale where the cord attaches to the tailbone. I discuss both on my new website and will be covering much more as the site develops.http://www.upright-health.com/

[blossom]

thank you dr. koontz i appreciate your input and interest here. what you say makes sence to me.

dr. flanagan, do you agree?

so far i am very pleased with how my chiro. is trying to get my pelvis and thoracic in better shape. he is spending time with me and is i feel looking at me more intense than others have. i need that as i am a very complicated case. it is early on and i did not get this bad overnight and as much as i would hope that a snap, crackel pop would make things go away like right now i know this will take time.

he is makeing adjustments in the neck also. i think he is trying to see how much a part stenosis etc. plays a part in this and what effects his treatments are having. he is very gentle with the neck. i feel he is very interested in what is going on with me and dr. flanagan's work. i have a feeling in time i will be getting some more test to see more of what may be going on. hopefully soon we will see some changes for the good.

when the spine and pelvis is corrected to the best it can be i still plan on nucca. unless of course i get my miracle healing. i will say, that so far, i have had mixed reactions after treatment. the pelvis and thoracic are coming along. definitly, the neck adjustments have had effects-good oneday that lasted pretty much all day-hard to explain-but my arms did not feel as heavy and fingers moved better. to after another treatment vibrating in fingers and weaker. i do feel he is trying to see more what is causing my probems in the neck area. which may take more testing, we'll see. dr. flanagan saw my x-rays and there is multiple choice-bone spurs-you name it. "a royal mess"

what i hope, which so far i feel he will, keep in touch with dr. flanagan and perhaps you also dr. koontz as far as my progress and what his input is-and be receptive to your input- as he is the one that is one on one with me and could better explain in chiro. lingo what he is finding as time goes on.

this is a question i have for you-i had the ccsvi treatment-after treatment i would get louder than normal heart beat and kind of like a pop pop popping in my ears especially my left ear. also i would get a flush heated face and my hands would warm up. i feared clots but doppler said i had flow. i am going next week for a recheck. this kind of pretty much subsided but i have noticed that has reactivated somewhat with an almost swooshing type of sound of blood heartbeat thing after some treatments at chiro. reminds me kind of when you turn on a water spiggot and open valve from low to high like swoosh swoosh. hard to explain. i have neglected to tell my chiro. about it but i will. as it not always there.
any input?

again, i can't thank you enough for coming to this site with your knowledge and unselfish advice. i hope it is not too late for me and others. i want to think it's not, as God created an amazing human body that given the right freedom it needs "like compression off nerves and blood flow" it will do its best to heal itself.

[uprightdoc]

Hello Blossom,
I agree in part but not in practice. I agree that it is not a good idea to have two doctors using two completely different methods working on you at the same time. The treating doctor needs to maintain control to make appropriate decisions. You wouldn't go to two different orthodontists using two different methods at the same time to straighten teeth. It's the same with the spine. In practice, I used specific cranial sacral work that included the full spine. I found I got better results faster and with no discomfort to the patient. Cranialsacral could be a serious contender to specific upper cervical but not as it is currently practiced by most doctors. It is far too subjective in analysis of the strain.
If there is no improvement with the current DABCO chiropractor you can go always go back to the NUCCA doctor. If you find you do better with both approaches the doctors will have to cooperate and work together for your benefit.

[uprightdoc]

Blossom,
The whooshing sound you hear is most likely due to changes in blood flow similar to changes in flow in a hose as you describe. Laminar blood flow is smooth and quite. Turbulence makes noise called bruits. The vascular doctor should be able to explain the noise.

[silverbirch]

Hello Blossom,
I agree in part but not in practice. I agree that it is not a good idea to have two doctors using two completely different methods working on you at the same time. The treating doctor needs to maintain control to make appropriate decisions. You wouldn't go to two different orthodontists using two different methods at the same time to straighten teeth. It's the same with the spine. .

Dr Flanagan
NUCCA Dr looks at the Atlas , Axis do they treat the rest of the spine ? or just prefer to stick with the Atlas, Axis ?
I have recently attended a chiropractor at the MS centre for massage although I did explain that I attend an NUCCA consultant for realinement of my neck

Silver

[uprightdoc]

Hello Silver,

NUCCA doctors prefer to work on the atlas. Most upper cervical doctors don't use full spine methods and most full spine doctors don't use specific upper cervical. I prefer both.

[silverbirch]

This has surprised me !!!
As per previous post I had a massage by the chrio guy well I could not move for a few days ... Any how I returned back telling him I had problems all my right side was bad leg , foot ,hip and my side all the problems I had in my only attack (18 mts ago) which in turn led to a DX OF MS he found it interesting that a massage should return ALL my symptoms( although mild and not paralised) that led to an MS DX

Again he done another softer massage detailed along either side of the spine at a number of key points I was able to tell him were it had an effect on limbs again it only happened on the limbs on the right the most effected was my big toe and still Im getting weird feelings behind the nail!!
I have good mobility and no MS feelings its all very interesting for me - how can he press on an area and I get feelings that was there in my attack ? my brain has three lesions and my autoamune is the root cause ! and not key points on y spine

I shall attend the Chiro for massage and Dr Heidi for NUCCA if you have advice please advise it would be very welcomed

[NZer1]

Interesting, I have had the same experience where massage will make symptoms worse which wears off after a day or three.
I have had this happen from deep tissue massage of spine areas and I no longer have massages because of the effect.