CCSVI and CCVBP

CaptBoo · Post by **CaptBoo** » Tue May 10, 2011 7:19 pm

Doc, It's been a week since the adjustment. I just noticed that the knot I've had in my left shoulder/ neck for years and years has disappeared. After quite a dip, life just keeps getting better.

Boo

orion98665 · Post by **orion98665** » Tue May 10, 2011 7:44 pm

uprightdoc wrote:Hello Orion,
I have scanned your wife's report. It's involved so I will get back to you when I have had a chance go through it again.

The internal jugular and azygous veins are close to and follow the curves of the spine. Abnormal curvatures change the normal course and the flow of blood through the veins.

Let me know when you get back in town.

Hello DR. Flanagan thanks for the reply. This report is involved and a bit
complex for me. But what has me concerned is this pinching of the Azygous and LIJV as noted on pg#'s 6-7. Could this pinching be caused by the abnormal curvatures or possibly bone or muscle?? If the MRV report is too vague to determine this than that's understandable.

https://acrobat.com/#d=gYUFGVp1XQyELmPaiFzK8g

Hey, thanks again!

Bob

uprightdoc · Post by **uprightdoc** » Wed May 11, 2011 12:57 am

NZer1 wrote:My visit with the GP went well. He understood my dialogue and had read my copy of this thread of recent time.
Firstly my BP was low, 90/60 at rest and for the first time raised to 100/75 on standing. It has always dropped in the past.
The approach is that I will have xrays on cervical spine and also my LH hip as it is problematic as well.
There is another letter of request to the neuro for MRI and for up right MRI I believe. The Dr knew exactly what we had been discussing here!
Ironically my symptoms in the last few days have changed. I am getting the L'Hermittes symptom almost constantly. Any movement in my neck sets this off at present. Even coughing will send a shock through my spine arms and legs. There is at present a tingling in my hands and fingers that is constant and does fluctuate with movement but does not go away. The tingling at times feels like my legs want to pull upward into a fetal pose.
How this develops or subsides is going to be of interest. It is to be honest a bit scary.
Have just hauled out my MRI's to compare with your brilliant description on your site. Upright MRI would be the only true indication in my situation. Things to the untrained eye look ok. Straight line of the brain stem although there are places where contact 'could' occur and deviate the cord either at the skull front of the foraman magnum or also at atlas/axis level. This would only be indicated on upright MRI. The deviation and contact points of the C5/6 disc bulge IMO would be impacting the cord when the spine is flexed, and the possibility of drawing the brain stem into contact as well with the foreman magnum. In my mind a form of tethering? Stretching the cord between to points when the neck is curved (because the cord is unable to move freely in the spinal column)? Not sure if that is 'tethered cord' syndrome?
Regards Nigel

Hi Nigel,
Your low BP isn't the cause of the problem but it doesn't help your situation. Your are spot on about the potential contact points or areas where CSF pathways are compressed (stenosis). You are also correct that Lhermitte's sign can be caused by contact of the cord with spurs in the neck or as the spinal nerves get pulled through tight foramen (stenosis).
Classic tethering of the cord occurs when the spinal cord in too short relative to the length of the spine. Tethering of the cord can also be caused by scars. Functional tethering of the cord can be caused by abnormal curvatures of the spine such as scoliosis.

NZer1 · Post by **NZer1** » Wed May 11, 2011 4:07 am

Thanks Dr. In the recent weeks I am very aware that my posture has changed and that I cannot maintain a good spinal posture for long, I am too weak and the muscles fatigue too fast.
At the same time my symptoms in extremities and general sensory symptoms have become worse. My deduction focused along the lines you mention.
Nerve outlets and curvature being the most likely things that are also impacted by physical contact of the cord against spine.
Thought the article about atrophy was interesting as my cord is likely to have shrunk faster than my spine has aged and shrunk?

colapesce · Post by **colapesce** » Wed May 11, 2011 6:17 am

hello to everyone.

I'm wondering if it's normal to feel so weak and sleepy (all of the time) after being adjusted. I've had 2 adjustments in the past month and have felt this way for approximately 2 weeks. Am due to be checked again in 2 days' time.

Did anybody else feel like this?

silverbirch · Post by **silverbirch** » Wed May 11, 2011 7:10 am

[colapesce I have had regular adjustments my first appointment was 12 months ago and have had about 5/6 adjustments. ive not felt weak/sleepy for more than 24 hrs following NUCCA appointment.

I now think that I know when I need adjustment by example last week I felt light headed like ive been on a slow merry go round and slow pulse like feeling on the top of the head went to Dr Heidi Grant uk had adjustment and then Im good to go xx

Hey Dr Flanagan still no crackeing of the neck !!!!! again thanks for the introduction to Dr Heidi

Twisted sister xxxx

DrKoontzDC · Post by **DrKoontzDC** » Thu May 12, 2011 1:13 am

colapesce wrote:hello to everyone.

I'm wondering if it's normal to feel so weak and sleepy (all of the time) after being adjusted. I've had 2 adjustments in the past month and have felt this way for approximately 2 weeks. Am due to be checked again in 2 days' time.

Did anybody else feel like this?

Hello Colapesce

It's not uncommon for people to feel more relaxed after an Upper Cervical adjustment. The thing I hear the most from people after they begin care is that they are sleeping better. With that said, while there are some commonalities, there isn't really one common way that people should feel after beginning care. Your bodies reaction to Upper Cervical Care will be as unique as you are and how your life experiences have been.

After a friend of mine started care the best way he was able to describe what he was feeling at that time was that he was in a constant state of hyperactivity. His mind kept racing and he found it hard to concentrate. This went on for a couple of weeks until his body adapted to the renewed sensory input it was receiving. He had quite a number of health problems. The most outwardly noticeable symptom was that his head constantly wobbled on top of his neck like the little bobble head toys. Many months went by before I saw him again and during that time he remained under care. The first thing I noticed about him was that his head had stopped wobbling and was and still is steady on top of his neck as it should be. The thing is, he was never aware that his head wobbled. No one had ever mentioned it to him until myself and another one of his friends, in the same week, had commented on the same thing.

Be sure to mention it to your chiropractor so he/she is aware of how you are feeling. What's important is that they are doing the proper analysis and following the criteria set forth by the technique they are using to determine when an adjustment is needed or not instead of using symptoms alone as a means of determining when to perform and adjustment. That is why I'm such a big fan of using thermography instrumentation to measure nerve interference because it's a truly objective unbiased measuring tool that in my opinion is critical in being able to properly care for a patient. As long as your chiropractor is following the protocols laid down by their technique and only adjusting you when needed then you should be fine. More than likely, like my friend, your body probably just needs some time to adapt. Remember your reaction to starting care will be as unique as you are and above all, be a patient patient. If you stick with it, things will get better.

uprightdoc · Post by **uprightdoc** » Thu May 12, 2011 4:32 am

Hello Orion,

orion98665 wrote:
uprightdoc wrote:The internal jugular and azygous veins are close to and follow the curves of the spine. Abnormal curvatures change the normal course and the flow of blood through the veins.
what has me concerned is this pinching of the Azygous and LIJV as noted on pg#'s 6-7. Could this pinching be caused by the abnormal curvatures or possibly bone or muscle?? If the MRV report is too vague to determine this than that's understandable.

https://acrobat.com/#d=gYUFGVp1XQyELmPaiFzK8g

The MRV is too vague to determine if there are abnormal curvatures of the spine contributing to the problem. Plain view x-rays, to check for scoliosis and cervical problems are easy to get, inexpensive and provide a great deal of information. AP and lateral cervical and lumbar x-rays are a good start. As I have said before, I prefer a 14x36 inch AP view for scoliosis cases. Fernando posted his 14x36 view early in this thread. Very few facilities carry the large cassets.

colapesce · Post by **colapesce** » Thu May 12, 2011 12:33 pm

Thank you Dr Koontz and Silverbirch for your replies.

I'll mention again to Dr Heidi about the sleepiness, as it'd only been for a couple of days the last time we met. I'll also ask her about the thermography apparatus you mentioned.

I was starting to worry a little about it but you've put my mind at rest

Actually, today was a little better, I think. Today I've been clumsy and forgetful instead!

hannakat · Post by **hannakat** » Sat May 14, 2011 2:28 pm

After having 'my head on straight' for a couple weeks now, I have first hand experience with what happens when you fall and everything goes back out....immediately.

I knew what I experienced right after my adjustment but didn't know how much it affected me until this afternoon when I fell. I have 2 very intense days ahead, can't change a minute of it but I feel like crapola now.

HappyPoet · Post by **HappyPoet** » Sat May 14, 2011 3:52 pm

hannakat wrote:After having 'my head on straight' for a couple weeks now, I have first hand experience with what happens when you fall and everything goes back out....immediately.

I knew what I experienced right after my adjustment but didn't know how much it affected me until this afternoon when I fell. I have 2 very intense days ahead, can't change a minute of it but I feel like crapola now.

Oh hannakat, you're much too sweet to fall, no fair! I'm so sorry.

Hopefully, you'll be able to make it through the next couple of days and can then get adjusted ASAP.

Thank you for sharing what happened and for showing that there's another way to tell if improvements have taken place, albeit a most painful way, you poor thing. Again, I'm so sorry you fell.

Please let us know how your next adjustment goes, thx!

~Pam

NZer1 · Post by **NZer1** » Mon May 16, 2011 2:46 pm

Hi everyone, of interest?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21527570
A 3T MR Imaging Investigation of the Topography of Whole Spinal Cord Atrophy in Multiple Sclerosis.
Klein JP, Arora A, Neema M, Healy BC, Tauhid S, Goldberg-Zimring D, Chavarro-Nieto C, Stankiewicz JM, Cohen AB, Buckle GJ, Houtchens MK, Ceccarelli A, Dell'oglio E, Guttmann CR, Alsop DC, Hackney DB, Bakshi R.
Source
Laboratory for Neuroimaging Research and Department of Neurology and Department of Radiology, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts; and Department of Radiology, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts.
Abstract
BACKGROUND AND PURPOSE:
Spinal cord atrophy is a common feature of MS. However, it is unknown which cord levels are most susceptible to atrophy. We performed whole cord imaging to identify the levels most susceptible to atrophy in patients with MS versus controls and also tested for differences among MS clinical phenotypes.

MATERIALS AND METHODS:
Thirty-five patients with MS (2 with CIS, 27 with RRMS, 2 with SPMS, and 4 with PPMS phenotypes) and 27 healthy controls underwent whole cord 3T MR imaging. The spinal cord contour was segmented and assigned to bins representing each C1 to T12 vertebral level. Volumes were normalized, and group comparisons were age-adjusted.

RESULTS:
There was a trend toward decreased spinal cord volume at the upper cervical levels in PPMS/SPMS versus controls. A trend toward increased spinal cord volume throughout the cervical and thoracic cord in RRMS/CIS versus controls reached statistical significance at the T10 vertebral level. A statistically significant decrease was found in spinal cord volume at the upper cervical levels in PPMS/SPMS versus RRMS/CIS.

CONCLUSIONS:
Opposing pathologic factors impact spinal cord volume measures in MS. Patients with PPMS demonstrated a trend toward upper cervical cord atrophy. However patients with RRMS showed a trend toward increased volume at the cervical and thoracic levels, which most likely reflects inflammation or edema-related cord expansion. With the disease causing both expansion and contraction of the cord, the specificity of spinal cord volume measures for neuroprotective therapeutic effect may be limited.

costumenastional · Post by **costumenastional** » Tue May 17, 2011 3:45 am

Dear Doctor Flanagan,

I wanted to share with all and listen to what you have to say:

Lately, and about a week after dr Koontz adjusted me (no pain as always and a clear small crack which indicates that I needed an adjustment), I got worse. It was enough to remind me what I was dealing with before I met you. In other words, it sucked big time.
Everything seemed to return, brain issues, hands, everything.
All these were accompanied by neck pain and a most uncomfortable feeling. I dont remember doing something that may helped my adjustment to take a hike, only a pain in my neck while sleeping.

I contacted dr Koontz a couple of days later, complaining about living like a clockwork toy, depending from adjustments which no one knows how long they will hold. After all, it has been a great ride up until now and I had almost forgotten what the deal was with my symptoms.

He kindly responded, telling me to go and see him sooner than later.
The weird part is that the next day it had subsided considerably, leaving me in the previous, usual condition. Just like that, all major symptoms were gone leaving me with a kind of iritated neck. I say weird cause if my adjustment was not holding, symptoms wouldn't go away right? It's hard to imagine that my vertebrae were missaligned and got back in position somehow a couple of days later.

Now, last night, I woke up in the middle of the night by an electric sensation originating from my cervical spine, that shocked my whole body. It was very powerful although I wasn't frightened since I thought I was dreaming for a while. I saw a bright light I think for an instance and I remember I was smiling for some reason. Like a near death experience or something

I am worried. Even though it is crystal clear that my neck is responsible for everything, it seems like chiropractic adjustments have done all that could be done and maybe it is time for me to pursue more invasive solutions. Solutions that may help stabilize my condition for good.

What do you think? Do you believe that I should stick with chiro adjustments for ever? It doesn't look like those damn bones will ever allign perfectly as it goes.

It has been about 8 months I am under the care of dr Koontz and it has been a life changing journey for me. My body tells me that I can live almost symptom free at some point. It is obvious since some times I feel perfect.

I haven't spoken with Dr Koontz about this yet. I need to talk in person with him about this and even though I am guessing that u will both be against surgery, well...you know me. I want this thing to end once and for all.

uprightdoc · Post by **uprightdoc** » Tue May 17, 2011 6:56 am

Hello CN,
Bones don't drift in and out of place so easily to cause the problems you experienced. On the other hand, muscles and connective tissues, such as ligaments can get themselves into knots simply by sleeping in an awkward position. Muscles and ligaments can cause a great deal of pain and they can compress and irritate underlying tissue. For example a tight pectoralis minor muscle can compress nerves and blood vessels going down to the arm (thoracic outlet syndrome). Likewise the muscles in the upper cervical spine can pinch local nerves, such as the suboccipital, and compress vascular tunnels. If you got better it is probably because you irritated muscles and connective tissues more than misaligning your neck.

Stabilization surgery for the upper cervical spine is not something to be taken lightly. It is generally used for severe upper cervical instability. You would have a hard time convincing a neurosurgeon that you need the surgery. Moreover, evern after surgery you could still get your muscles and connective tissues in knots. I suggest you stick with upper cervical and save surgery as a last option.

costumenastional · Post by **costumenastional** » Tue May 17, 2011 8:46 am

Only something like that could have happened. Even though I don't get how anything in there can get tightened into knots, I 've given it some serious thought and everything started the day after I woke up during the middle of the night by a sharp pain in my neck.
But hey, I was just sleeping. I mean, how can I make sure that something like that wont happen again? I can't. Not to mention that nothing like that had happened since I started chiropractic, so you ll have to excuse me for being alarmed. If it hadn't disappeared in an instance, like it made it's appearance, I really can't imagine what I would do.

One would say, chill out man, you are doing fine most of the time, so you might as well live with it.
The thing is that I feel like I have found an oasis in the middle of Sahara and I am allowed to drink only as much as needed so I don't dye from thirst. I wanna drink the whole lake, you know? I am not to the point I am in search of a last option, not even close. I am doing VERY good overall. I just feel I can do even better.

Anyway, thank you very much for your answer. What you said makes sense indeed and I am happy I decided to ask you. Now, Dr Koontz will have to put up with me regarding surgery since you always say no.
Over the phone I could tell he was worrying sick for me, especially after all that progress we have made...

Seems like the misalignment I was living with for ten years messed up my neck for good and I must live with some of the consequences.
Until I find a surgeon crazy enough to cut me open that is ;)