CCSVI and CCVBP
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uprightdoc
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Low back pain can be caused by many things including musculskeletal problems, colon and kidneys. Regardless of the cause the consequence is typically irritated, hypertonic (knotted up) muscles. When they get real bad the low back muscles can go into severe spasms and cause significant pain about as bad as it can get.
Dr. I have been wondering about injuries and the possibility that the swelling may compress veins. If for instance a muscle tear or other long time to repair injury happens to the neck could this effect blood flow?
Whiplash and other injuries to neck muscles and tissues that normally are not large can grow dramatically and I imagine that the pressure against a flexible vein could cause restricted flow like when a vein re-stenosis, the same as a relapse remitting MS person?
Long shot, but so many of us who have had neck injury would have had healing time which may have been slow flow time that starved blood in regions of the brain causing lesions. Not all injuries would cause this sure, and not all people have MS and co-incidence of injury at the onset, there are other reasons for blood flow issues that are caused from congenital issues and a percentage without CCSVI. May be another concept for jigsaw pieces to the puzzle named MS?
Snowing outside, not normal for this altitude.
Regards Nigel
Whiplash and other injuries to neck muscles and tissues that normally are not large can grow dramatically and I imagine that the pressure against a flexible vein could cause restricted flow like when a vein re-stenosis, the same as a relapse remitting MS person?
Long shot, but so many of us who have had neck injury would have had healing time which may have been slow flow time that starved blood in regions of the brain causing lesions. Not all injuries would cause this sure, and not all people have MS and co-incidence of injury at the onset, there are other reasons for blood flow issues that are caused from congenital issues and a percentage without CCSVI. May be another concept for jigsaw pieces to the puzzle named MS?
Snowing outside, not normal for this altitude.
Regards Nigel
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uprightdoc
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They certainly can. Injuries to the soft tissues and misalignments of the cervical spine, especially the upper cervical spine cause tension in the muscles and connective tissues that can compress the suboccipital cavernous sinus, which contains the vertebral artery and emissary vein routes. They can also deform and thus cause tension in the area around the jugular foramen and in the sternocleidomastoid (SCM) muscles and thus compress the jugular routes. Lastly, they can deform and thus compress the contents of the foramen magnum and upper cervical spinal canal, which contains the vertebral veins and the subarachnoid space for CSF flow.
Thanks Dr.
Another thing that has gained my attention was a case that Dr. S worked on and has been talking about on his thread;
Quote "These images show that the transverse sinus and the sigmoid sinus had normal diameters. However there was a prominent connection between the transverse sinus inside the skull and the vertebral vein and posterior cervical branches on the outside. These vessels are connected by a very large emissary vein traversing across the skull via the hypoglossal canal. This canal is usually a very small opening in the skull but in this patient it is exceedingly large. I think this suggests that a long standing (perhaps congenital) outflow obstruction of the internal jugular vein has existed. "
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-10680-da ... -5580.html
This got my attention for many reasons, firstly the way that the patients body had adjusted to a long standing flow problem and secondly the down stream vascular effect as well.
With the enlargement of the canal I would have gone and looked at its opposite side for clues and then considered why this enlargement had been necessary. The down stream effects on flow are dynamic as well.
What do you think on this as it is the first mention I have heard of in CCSVI were this has been noted?
The thought on injury effecting blood flows came about because of an injury in my much loved dog, Sage. She badly bruised her neck and the swelling was immense and a huge concern. At first I did not think that she had damage from the accident, my mind thought the worst because of the ball shape and the hardness and the position, junction of spine and skull!
My own injury to the same area as a teenager makes more logical sense to me now.
Regards Nigel.
Another thing that has gained my attention was a case that Dr. S worked on and has been talking about on his thread;
Quote "These images show that the transverse sinus and the sigmoid sinus had normal diameters. However there was a prominent connection between the transverse sinus inside the skull and the vertebral vein and posterior cervical branches on the outside. These vessels are connected by a very large emissary vein traversing across the skull via the hypoglossal canal. This canal is usually a very small opening in the skull but in this patient it is exceedingly large. I think this suggests that a long standing (perhaps congenital) outflow obstruction of the internal jugular vein has existed. "
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-10680-da ... -5580.html
This got my attention for many reasons, firstly the way that the patients body had adjusted to a long standing flow problem and secondly the down stream vascular effect as well.
With the enlargement of the canal I would have gone and looked at its opposite side for clues and then considered why this enlargement had been necessary. The down stream effects on flow are dynamic as well.
What do you think on this as it is the first mention I have heard of in CCSVI were this has been noted?
The thought on injury effecting blood flows came about because of an injury in my much loved dog, Sage. She badly bruised her neck and the swelling was immense and a huge concern. At first I did not think that she had damage from the accident, my mind thought the worst because of the ball shape and the hardness and the position, junction of spine and skull!
My own injury to the same area as a teenager makes more logical sense to me now.
Regards Nigel.
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uprightdoc
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Hello Nigel,
There are many anatomical variations in the design of the drainage system of the brain. Some are predisposed to causing problems due to decreased capacity for various reasons. As you may recall Dr. Schelling started his research into the connection between drainage problems and MS when he noticed a significant difference is size of the jugular foramens in patients with MS. He surmized that the larger size was due to inversion flows.
I have a rare demo skull sitting on my desk that has craniosynostosis. In this particular case the sutures of the temporal bone closed prematurely causing the skull to bulge on the opposite left side. The head is thus slightly convex on the left and concave on the right. The transverse and sigmoid sinuses are much larger on the right. The hypoglossal canal is also much larger on the the right. On the left side the sigmoid sinus is partially occluded by the petrous portion of the temporal bone which sits slightly lower. The hyaloid canal on the left side is split and much smaller. The sutures on the outside of the skull near the mastoid bone just outside the intersection of the transverse and sigmoid sinuses are open compared to the sutures on the right side which are closed. The dipolic veins sit beneath the sutures and are connected by emissary veins to the veins inside and outside the skull. The open sutures suggest increased pressure in the diploic veins on the left side most likely due to the decrease in drainage capacity on that side. If this case was associated with MS it might be more productive to increase the drainage capacity of the larger unobstructed right side rather than attempting to improve flow on the left side with the obstructions.
There are many anatomical variations in the design of the drainage system of the brain. Some are predisposed to causing problems due to decreased capacity for various reasons. As you may recall Dr. Schelling started his research into the connection between drainage problems and MS when he noticed a significant difference is size of the jugular foramens in patients with MS. He surmized that the larger size was due to inversion flows.
I have a rare demo skull sitting on my desk that has craniosynostosis. In this particular case the sutures of the temporal bone closed prematurely causing the skull to bulge on the opposite left side. The head is thus slightly convex on the left and concave on the right. The transverse and sigmoid sinuses are much larger on the right. The hypoglossal canal is also much larger on the the right. On the left side the sigmoid sinus is partially occluded by the petrous portion of the temporal bone which sits slightly lower. The hyaloid canal on the left side is split and much smaller. The sutures on the outside of the skull near the mastoid bone just outside the intersection of the transverse and sigmoid sinuses are open compared to the sutures on the right side which are closed. The dipolic veins sit beneath the sutures and are connected by emissary veins to the veins inside and outside the skull. The open sutures suggest increased pressure in the diploic veins on the left side most likely due to the decrease in drainage capacity on that side. If this case was associated with MS it might be more productive to increase the drainage capacity of the larger unobstructed right side rather than attempting to improve flow on the left side with the obstructions.
Dr. the way I look at it if there are clinical signs then there would be the possibility that the drainage is starving a portion of the brain causing those symptoms. This I guess is what Dr. Schelling was thinking.
Having a dysfunction and finding these malformations would tend to make one think there is a connection?
Regards Nigel
Having a dysfunction and finding these malformations would tend to make one think there is a connection?
Regards Nigel
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uprightdoc
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Schelling was actually thinking more in terms of the pounding and turbulance created by inversion flows, not so much nutrient starvation of tissues. I think Schelling's theory is the best when it comes to explaining MS lesions.
The connection is becoming more and more obvious as the imaging technology advances. I have been reviewing the imaging portion of the presentation for the webinar on Tuesday. It's outstanding. I will be going over it later this morning with the doctor who wants to include some topics and pp slides from points in my book, which he described as a "great book." I will have to see if I can persuade him to write a review.
The connection is becoming more and more obvious as the imaging technology advances. I have been reviewing the imaging portion of the presentation for the webinar on Tuesday. It's outstanding. I will be going over it later this morning with the doctor who wants to include some topics and pp slides from points in my book, which he described as a "great book." I will have to see if I can persuade him to write a review.
Morning, Dr. I think that there are sometimes ideas that fix a persons vision into what is happening in MS even with the progressive thinkers.
I am of the opinion that there may be to much focus on the BBB breach and that its timing may not be as expected. This could be a possible turning point in the knowledge flow.
If for instance the BBB is breached as a secondary action, it may present as a different picture.
If the BBB is not breached until there is for instance an area of the brain that is starved by lack of blood flow for a myriad of reasons. When this happens the tight junctions of the BBB are unable to barrier, dead and dying tissues and the repair/cleanup process could cause the breach of the BBB and let viruses across the BBB as a secondary action.
There could also be a breach of the BBB that occurs from injury elsewhere such as the upper spine and the BBB is breached and the viruses cross and are transported around the CSF. And this could cause an infection in the low oxygen areas that area created by low flow from congenital malformations of veins, in a totally separate area of the CSF.
The Schelling idea of breach by fluid pressure is likely to be happening for all people and more so people with vascular flow issues of many types.
All in all there are many possible ways that infection/cleanup can happen and I think that it is possible and likely that being 'fixed' on any one method will slow things down. The methods of detecting breaches will be the winner.
Dr. is there ways that the MR people will be able to identify flow issues within the brain grey matter where lesions are found for instance, as well as the flow of arteries and veins?
Most nerve damage is done at capillary size areas, although the main flows are easier to detect, will flow at the capillary size be possible?
In my understanding the lesions form in areas where the vessels are small
as well as the main vessels, is this your understanding as well?
My memory tells me that infections and viruses prefer de-oxygenated and low nutrient situations. Unhealthy for us but healthy for them. If the blood flow is happening at the lesion sites doesn't that decrease the likely hood of viruses getting a strong hold?
Very cold, clear day after the weather and snow of yesterday, you know you are alive.
Regards Nigel
I am of the opinion that there may be to much focus on the BBB breach and that its timing may not be as expected. This could be a possible turning point in the knowledge flow.
If for instance the BBB is breached as a secondary action, it may present as a different picture.
If the BBB is not breached until there is for instance an area of the brain that is starved by lack of blood flow for a myriad of reasons. When this happens the tight junctions of the BBB are unable to barrier, dead and dying tissues and the repair/cleanup process could cause the breach of the BBB and let viruses across the BBB as a secondary action.
There could also be a breach of the BBB that occurs from injury elsewhere such as the upper spine and the BBB is breached and the viruses cross and are transported around the CSF. And this could cause an infection in the low oxygen areas that area created by low flow from congenital malformations of veins, in a totally separate area of the CSF.
The Schelling idea of breach by fluid pressure is likely to be happening for all people and more so people with vascular flow issues of many types.
All in all there are many possible ways that infection/cleanup can happen and I think that it is possible and likely that being 'fixed' on any one method will slow things down. The methods of detecting breaches will be the winner.
Dr. is there ways that the MR people will be able to identify flow issues within the brain grey matter where lesions are found for instance, as well as the flow of arteries and veins?
Most nerve damage is done at capillary size areas, although the main flows are easier to detect, will flow at the capillary size be possible?
In my understanding the lesions form in areas where the vessels are small
as well as the main vessels, is this your understanding as well?
My memory tells me that infections and viruses prefer de-oxygenated and low nutrient situations. Unhealthy for us but healthy for them. If the blood flow is happening at the lesion sites doesn't that decrease the likely hood of viruses getting a strong hold?
Very cold, clear day after the weather and snow of yesterday, you know you are alive.
Regards Nigel
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uprightdoc
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G'day mate. What's up with the snow down there?
Anyway, there are many things that can cause the brain to degenerate besides breach of the BBB. Flow problems can cause chronic ischemia, edema and NPH and each causes it's own set of problems. They can also occur together and futher complicate matters. Flow in the cortex can be checked indirectly by PET scan.
Anyway, there are many things that can cause the brain to degenerate besides breach of the BBB. Flow problems can cause chronic ischemia, edema and NPH and each causes it's own set of problems. They can also occur together and futher complicate matters. Flow in the cortex can be checked indirectly by PET scan.
So the way I see it is that there are electrical problems caused by plumbing problems. Most of the symptoms for MS people are similar. So there is likely to be a region that is a center of interest.
The junction points for transmission of electrical signs would have to be a primary test area.
Whether the symptoms are sensory or motor may be a red herring.
If the junctions of transmission and receiving are faulty the system would present with commonalities.
The hypothalamus and thalamus are junctions of signal transmission and they are places within the brain that have often had blood flow challenges.
Dr. Zivardinov and others have shown interest in this and I have from my first reading up about impingement and causes for sensation changes where I followed the transmission of signals suspected that there may be points in the system that are more important than others due to neuroplasticity adapting when an area of the brain becomes dysfunctional. So there may be red herrings in the system that have lead us away from the cause.
For a region of the body to be effected as apposed to a defined function I would tend to suspect the likes of the hypothalamus rather than an lesion or number of lesions scattered across the brain.
The blood flow around the hypothalamus is quite defined and would be suspect to turbulence and pounding style of damage more so than many of the places that lesions are seen on MRI across the brain.
Naturally any lesion on the cord like I have will cross transmission to and from the brain so any issues here will be more blanket like in their effect on disability.
Brain is slowing will add more later.
Regards Nigel
The junction points for transmission of electrical signs would have to be a primary test area.
Whether the symptoms are sensory or motor may be a red herring.
If the junctions of transmission and receiving are faulty the system would present with commonalities.
The hypothalamus and thalamus are junctions of signal transmission and they are places within the brain that have often had blood flow challenges.
Dr. Zivardinov and others have shown interest in this and I have from my first reading up about impingement and causes for sensation changes where I followed the transmission of signals suspected that there may be points in the system that are more important than others due to neuroplasticity adapting when an area of the brain becomes dysfunctional. So there may be red herrings in the system that have lead us away from the cause.
For a region of the body to be effected as apposed to a defined function I would tend to suspect the likes of the hypothalamus rather than an lesion or number of lesions scattered across the brain.
The blood flow around the hypothalamus is quite defined and would be suspect to turbulence and pounding style of damage more so than many of the places that lesions are seen on MRI across the brain.
Naturally any lesion on the cord like I have will cross transmission to and from the brain so any issues here will be more blanket like in their effect on disability.
Brain is slowing will add more later.
Regards Nigel
Just remembered where I was leading to, lol.
Dr with your health challenges being more based in structural issues that have lead to electrical and flow issues, how do you see the similarities between between your and my problems?
I get the feeling there is a clue I'm missing, what could be learned here?
Regards Nigel
Dr with your health challenges being more based in structural issues that have lead to electrical and flow issues, how do you see the similarities between between your and my problems?
I get the feeling there is a clue I'm missing, what could be learned here?
Regards Nigel
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uprightdoc
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Drainage issues cause problems. So does decreased arterial and CSF flow. Problems are also caused by tension, compression and shear forces in the brain due to malposition of the head and neck which effect the normal orientation of the brain inside the cranial vault.
My issues are due to connective tissue synthesis, maintenance and repair. More specifically, if mostly effects my muscles and tendons, which cause stiffness. It also affects lubrication of the muscle fascia interface and to a lesser extent joints. It doesn't appear to effect the cartilage or ligaments as much. It does effect the small blood vessels beneath my skin, which makes sometimes makes me susceptible to minor trauma and inflammation from contact. Connective tissues effect joint and body alignment as well as movement. They also effect neurovascular tunnels which can compress their contents. Autoimmune inflammatory connective tissue disorders are poorly understood.
My issues are due to connective tissue synthesis, maintenance and repair. More specifically, if mostly effects my muscles and tendons, which cause stiffness. It also affects lubrication of the muscle fascia interface and to a lesser extent joints. It doesn't appear to effect the cartilage or ligaments as much. It does effect the small blood vessels beneath my skin, which makes sometimes makes me susceptible to minor trauma and inflammation from contact. Connective tissues effect joint and body alignment as well as movement. They also effect neurovascular tunnels which can compress their contents. Autoimmune inflammatory connective tissue disorders are poorly understood.
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uprightdoc
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It has been my experience that upper cord lesions like yours are often associated with trauma. The brainstem and upper cord, however, are susceptible to kinking and congestion, which can effect blood and CSF flow that can in turn lead to neurodegenerative processes.
My symptoms are: blurry vision, tinnitus, facial numbness, swelling, trismus, bilateral trigeminal neuralgia, dry mouth, disturbed sleep, paresthesias/dysethesias in both hands and feet to dry materials such as: paper napkins, sheetrock, ceramic tile floors, soft cotton blue jeans, tingling in both feet, weakness in right leg, pain in right leg, tremors in right leg, severe nighttime tonic spasms in right leg (positive hyperreflexia, Babinski sign and clonus right leg), right hip degeneration and loss of motion, tonic spasms in both feet provoked by activities such as bicycle riding, cc ski and swimming, atrophy or neck and shoulder muscles, rotator cuff tears and loss of ROM L/R shoulders, low back spasms, neck spasms, pulling behind right eye, sleep apnea, vasculitis, slight heat intolerance, sensitivity to bright light and poor accomodation, occassional profound fatigue, crepitis of all spine joints, both shoulders, and both hips.
My symptoms are: blurry vision, tinnitus, facial numbness, swelling, trismus, bilateral trigeminal neuralgia, dry mouth, disturbed sleep, paresthesias/dysethesias in both hands and feet to dry materials such as: paper napkins, sheetrock, ceramic tile floors, soft cotton blue jeans, tingling in both feet, weakness in right leg, pain in right leg, tremors in right leg, severe nighttime tonic spasms in right leg (positive hyperreflexia, Babinski sign and clonus right leg), right hip degeneration and loss of motion, tonic spasms in both feet provoked by activities such as bicycle riding, cc ski and swimming, atrophy or neck and shoulder muscles, rotator cuff tears and loss of ROM L/R shoulders, low back spasms, neck spasms, pulling behind right eye, sleep apnea, vasculitis, slight heat intolerance, sensitivity to bright light and poor accomodation, occassional profound fatigue, crepitis of all spine joints, both shoulders, and both hips.
Thanks Dr.
In my humble opinion we share many symptoms and there is likely a line between causes for injury and de-generation. The de-generation is the part that is the most challenging. Is the de-generation and symptoms caused by one or many factors. And are there areas where there is unknown cause, that is to say that there are many diseases that are placed in the too hard box, that haven't been understood well enough to give them separation, until now.
The knowledge that is exploding on vascular insufficiency is opening the flood gate. All the 'auto-immune' and 'neuro-de-generative' diseases suddenly have interest as the mechanism has meaning.
It is almost as though the grouping of these diseases needs to be dropped immediately as though those lines did not exist so that fresh thinking can begin to 'see' the wood from the trees.
The testing methods from here on need to be created to fit the new Paradym. The cost to perform these tests is prohibitive and the Pharma industry is likely to be nervous. If there is a new direction for health care that does involve drugs there needs to be a new model for financing research at the same time as the old model of understanding these 'diseases' in buried.
Got that off my chest.
Dr. where do you see the greatest need in the technology field. What sort of testing and equipment will be necessary?
To progress this new model it appears that there are many tests required to better understand and break down the processes involved so that the interaction can be mapped. In many of the concepts that are in current theories there is no actual proof the the pieces link in a way that is in effect influencing a set idea. Vitamins and lack there of and supplementing is one particular case in point. There was a push by you know who (Pharma) to pump people full of vitamins of every color and origin, now it is said that natural is the best way to go and the most bio-available in the most natural form, so diet is going to provide for the bodies needs far better than Pharma intervention can ever do.
Again this is a case of the technology and finances to support the knowledge rather than big business acting unethically and out of integrity.
Dr what do you think MR imaging is going to do for this knowledge burst?
I'll stop now and take the dog for a walk and leave you in thought.
Regards Nigel
In my humble opinion we share many symptoms and there is likely a line between causes for injury and de-generation. The de-generation is the part that is the most challenging. Is the de-generation and symptoms caused by one or many factors. And are there areas where there is unknown cause, that is to say that there are many diseases that are placed in the too hard box, that haven't been understood well enough to give them separation, until now.
The knowledge that is exploding on vascular insufficiency is opening the flood gate. All the 'auto-immune' and 'neuro-de-generative' diseases suddenly have interest as the mechanism has meaning.
It is almost as though the grouping of these diseases needs to be dropped immediately as though those lines did not exist so that fresh thinking can begin to 'see' the wood from the trees.
The testing methods from here on need to be created to fit the new Paradym. The cost to perform these tests is prohibitive and the Pharma industry is likely to be nervous. If there is a new direction for health care that does involve drugs there needs to be a new model for financing research at the same time as the old model of understanding these 'diseases' in buried.
Got that off my chest.
Dr. where do you see the greatest need in the technology field. What sort of testing and equipment will be necessary?
To progress this new model it appears that there are many tests required to better understand and break down the processes involved so that the interaction can be mapped. In many of the concepts that are in current theories there is no actual proof the the pieces link in a way that is in effect influencing a set idea. Vitamins and lack there of and supplementing is one particular case in point. There was a push by you know who (Pharma) to pump people full of vitamins of every color and origin, now it is said that natural is the best way to go and the most bio-available in the most natural form, so diet is going to provide for the bodies needs far better than Pharma intervention can ever do.
Again this is a case of the technology and finances to support the knowledge rather than big business acting unethically and out of integrity.
Dr what do you think MR imaging is going to do for this knowledge burst?
I'll stop now and take the dog for a walk and leave you in thought.
Regards Nigel