CCSVI and CCVBP

[NZer1]

How many people with a dx of MS are actually people with Chiari type 1 Malformation and Zamboni criteria CCSVI.

If there is true reflux and crossing of the BBB then lesions will form.

If there are no lesions in Chiari, it would take the reflux effect to also effect CSF flow and lesion formation.

Chiari is also a disease that is effected by the CSF pump effect which is created and effected by blood inlet then outlet flow from the brain, in the same way that CCSVI patients are also effected by CSF flow symptoms.

In the last couple of days a paper was released from Mayo Clinic saying that lesions of white matter are not primary lesions in MS, that grey matter lesions start first then white matter follow.

This is also supported by papers from Australia who investigated lesions and found no inflammation present in new lesions.

If people were investigated for Chiari in an upright MRI prior to PTA and the PTA changed the symptoms that are very similar almost identical to Chiari symptoms, what has been achieved? CSF flow improvement? What effect was there on the Chiari symptoms and what whould be seen on a scan after time?

If a person who did not have instant symptom change from PTA was to be assessed for Chiari and CSF flow rates what would we find?

If you place this Chiari symptom list ( http://chiarione.org/chiari.html ) next to a CCSVI symptom list from Mike Atara they look the same, if you also place an outcome list from Chiari decompression surgery along side the outcomes list of Mike Atara they are very similar. Could this similarity be the same but opposite, there fore the poor res-ponders from PTA may need to be assessed for Chiari?

What is MS?

Thoughts please,
Regards Nigel

[NZer1]

When good information is halted by "Medicine" who do we have to thank,
http://www.orthomolecular.org/resources ... tml?mid=54

[uprightdoc]

Dr. Rosa says he hasn't seen and MS patient yet that didn't have a Chiari 1. He does, however, handle many trauma cases.

It is not necessary to have reflux for MS lesion formation. Lesions can form due to poor cerebral perfusion pressure and ischemia.

Anything that disturbs blood flow in the brain affects CSF flow. The low side of the CSF pressure gradient is in the IJs and vertebral venous plexus. If PTA improves Chiari signs and symptoms it is most likely due to it impact on blood and CSF pressure gradients. I doubt, however, that PTA will correct a Chiari or tethered cord. In fact, as I mentioned at the start of this thread it could cause overdrainage of the brain in certain cases. Overdrainage occurs when CSF drainage exceeds CSF production.

I mention in my book that researchers have shown that MS can start in the nerve first before myelin and you don't need inflammation to cause demyelination. In addition ischemia, myelin can get injured from overstretching due to edema.

I haven't heard from any Chiari cases that did well following PTA but if they did it would be due to increased blood flow. Yes poor responders to PTA may have a Chiari.

I just reviewed eleven interesting cases yesterday. They were scanned supine and weren't checked for Chiari so there is no way of knowing whether they do or don't but they all had significant cervical spondylosis. Spondylosis causes stenosis of the vertebral veins. The vertebral veins are the primary drainage routes of the brain during upright posture. Spondylosis and osteophytes can also cause tethering of the cord and functional Chiari.

Classic MS is associated with multple scars in the supratentorial, periventricular and perivenular areas of the brain. The problem is that some people don't have multiple scars and some people have scars in the wrong places. Compared to Europeans, Asians and Africans have a much lower incidence of classic MS scars in the brain but they do get optic neuritis and they do get transverse myelitis. I suspect it has to do with the design of the posterior fossa. The other problem is many cases of possible and probable MS aren't MS.

Blossom is a good case in point. She almost has MS, which is called probable because she doen's have classic lesions, and she almost has compressive cervical spondylotic myelopathy (CSM), but the bone spurs aren't quite touching the cord yet. Technically she doesn't have MS or CSM but has signs and symptoms of both.

[NZer1]

And can we test CSF flow to define cases like Blossom? If we could there would be direction for thought!

As you have shown by your career choices and knowledge search there is not going to be one specialty that solves this riddle, quite the opposite, do we have to lock some of the leading minds in a room until the answer is found?

[NZer1]

Moved my computer screen down about 150 mm and it has slowed or stopped my head aches from spending time on the thing? Clue, I believe so!
Still pushing GP appointment of Tues late pm, have a plan!
Regards Nigel

[uprightdoc]

Blood and CSF flow can be checked in cases like Blossom's.

I don't know if it necessary to lock everyone in one room to find answers. There is so much available now and changing so fast it is hard to keep up with it. It just requires disseminating all the knowledge so that we are all on the same page. Once that happens, it then becomes a question of triage in determining the best solution. That's where we have to put our heads together and use the tools currently at our disposal.

Mechanical CSF shunts are incredible but with rift with problems. Surgical shunts and decompression are another option and will continue to improve. Minimally invasive endoscopic brain surgery is opening new horizons here now with innovative solutions to many mechanical problems inside the cranial vault and brain. In the meantime, the vascular doctors have developed a simple and effective altenative to shunts that can indirectly affect CSF flow. I am sure the method will continue to improve and so will the durability of the procedure. Chiropractors have specific upper cervical and special decompression tables that can offer many solutions as well before and after surgery if necessary for improving blood and CSF flow in the brain and cord, not too mention the health of the spine a multitude of other conditions.

I'm just getting started. There is much more to cover. My next book jumps ahead a bit and is related more to Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, but it has some interesting tidbits that apply to MS as well, especially when it comes to the diagnosis and misdiagnosis of these conditions.

[MarkW]

Uprightdoc asked:
Mark,
It is impressive that you had such dramatic changes after twenty years of assault on your nervous system. Your problems started at the age of 31. What happened before that? It's hard to tell with you sitting but you look fairly robust. Were you involved in any accidents? Did you play sports or other fitness activities? Do you have any basic x-rays of any parts of your spine?

My first MS relapse (diplopia) at age 32 resolved completely after 6 weeks and has not returned so far after 20 years. As far as I remember I did not suffer any injuries in the years before, my sport at that time was badmington and I exercised with gym machines mainly rowing. I do not have any X-rays of my head, neck and spine except for venograms of my veins.
Part of me says 'do not touch'. But if this can be checked out non invasively wth a verifyable diagnosis for reasonable costs, I would like to know about my atlas alignment. However I do not trust anyone enough to undergo manipulation without an X-ray diagnosis first.
Is this possible and what is approx cost ?
Thanks and regards,
MarkW

PS to EJC and Coach.
I am not convinced about the causes of CCSVI, let alone atlas/jaw alignment. However I am an advocate of treating symptoms safely and seeing if anything happens.

[EJC]

However I am an advocate of treating symptoms safely and seeing if anything happens.

That's pretty much where I am. Emma had severe jaw pain, which is what led us down this road.

Talk to Amir, it's worth a conversation if nothing else. He now posts on here.

[blossom]

hi dr. flanagan,

two treatments ago with nucca dr. my head was on the little platform slightly different i felt, "and i could kick myself for not speaking up". anyway right after the adj. i told the dr. it just did not feel right and my thoughts about the angle of my head when he adjusted and i just did not feel right. like even the neck muscles tightened right then. he rubbed my neck said it would be fine. it wasn't. i bumped my appt. up and he adjusted again. now, my middle back pain is back, low back pain is back not as intense but after having a little relief you hate it.

also, the tmj is acting up even with a new switch. my jaw feels like it wants to draw to the left. and i have such a tight pressure behind at the bottom of both ears and the pressure at the base of my skull is worse and i generally just feel worse. i feel he will get it right again "i hope" but after all the time i've spent there it doesn't make for a good day.

now, back on oct. 3 i posted you with questions about my jaw and when i bit down regular way the problems but when i extended my bottom jaw things felt better i even breath better etc. you answered about the jaws effecting the cervical etc.

in 2004 i had contacted a dentist in tacouma, washington that was doing work with dental braces and helping with ms. just dug out the old paper work.

talk about complicated. ok, i "did not" have tmj trouble before the fall, "i did not" snore before the trauma. everything was great. these fit jaw problems. the nucca helped tmj but not the snoreing or the lower jaw thing.

now, we know the spurs and stenosis is an issue and i'm trying to get that resolved. "have to admit that the thoughts of it can kinda scare me" but---

with all this going on and the info. i'm still thinking get the spurs out of the way-see how things react then attention to the jaw "if needed" either with cranial chiro. or admir's way of treatment. try to keep my total spine tuned up it's a mess. does that still sound in order?

i always appreciate and respect your opinion.

what a complicated mess-but even the mess it is-it makes so much sence. your time here has been so valuable.

as nigel said get all you good docs in a room. we do need a village to look at us as the individuals we each are.

hope you are on the mend after your setback.

[NZer1]

Dr. F have you two books on the go?

At the moment I am doing everything I shouldn't to be as 'effected' for tomorrows appointment with my GP.

I am well aware that has meant that my head feels like it is going to explode!

Tomorrow I am having coffee with a friend who has had Chiari decompression treatment and then I am off to my GP.

Well aware that I need to keep my head around my symptoms and not get lost in her experience.

Blossom, thanks, I really hope you can get help one way or another. In my humble opinion we all need to be tested some how for hind brain issues/brain stem issues as the symptoms are crossing over for so many diseases. Neuro's have probably know this for decades and not fessed up to the outside world.

When I look at other diseases such as Chiari type 1 Malformation there are soo many similarities. Especially the male female incidence and there is a host of other latitude, diet, hereditory and so on.

Why haven't Neuro's spoken out and said that they are lost?

There is so much that cross referencing could have helped with decades ago!

We are only at the beginning of this knowledge explosion, I am thankful our children have us battling ahead! Go Dr. F!

Regards all,
Nigel

[NZer1]

I have to add that I don't think that the Practitioners of Atlas Alignment are achieving what they are after!

How many show proof of adjustment after (and for that matter before and after)?

Are we actually receiving what is said to be done?

Too often any adjustment is better than none!

Do Practitioners actually know what they are objectively doing?

I'm not expecting studies and outcomes, as we know EBM is a have! See Joan Beales statements from the resent articles!

What I would like to see is people having long term improvements! And then analysis of why?

Too many assumptions by Practitioners, And where are we the victims of this group of cloaking diseases!

Thanks for listening,
Nigel

[uprightdoc]

My first MS relapse (diplopia) at age 32 resolved completely after 6 weeks and has not returned so far after 20 years. As far as I remember I did not suffer any injuries in the years before, my sport at that time was badmington and I exercised with gym machines mainly rowing. I do not have any X-rays of my head, neck and spine except for venograms of my veins.
Part of me says 'do not touch'. But if this can be checked out non invasively wth a verifyable diagnosis for reasonable costs, I would like to know about my atlas alignment. However I do not trust anyone enough to undergo manipulation without an X-ray diagnosis first.
Is this possible and what is approx cost ?

Hi Mark
The only person I would recommend is Dr. Heidi Grant in London. Dr. Grant does NUCCA upper cervical. NUCCA is based on precision laser aligned x-rays using head clamps to assure correct positioning. The views include a nasium that is taken through the nose area to see atlas (C1), a side view of the cervical spine called a lateral, and base posterior taken at an angle pointing up through the bottom of the jaw up through the top of the skull to view the foramen magnum and upper cervical canal as well atlas. Corrections are done on special side posture tables that allow pre-stressing the skull in various way. The doctor then lightly presses on the transverse process of C1 (atlas) in a specific direction that includes the x, y an z axes of misalignment. Post x-rays are taken soon after the initial treatment to check correction and make further adjustments to the corrective vector if necessary. I have no idea what the cost is but is far less than the vascular intervention.

[uprightdoc]

Hi Blossom,
Be patient the the muscle tension from the NUCCA adjustment will fade. NUCCA can be of benefit to you if it can get the forward curve in your neck reduced and get your head back in line over you spine not in front of it. The foward postion of your neck pulls the cord toward the bone spurs. The problem is the cervical spondylosis (degeneration) may limit the amount of correction that can be obtained. If I were treating you I would be using spinal decompression.

I used craniopathy on patients with TMJ problems due to maloclussions, arthritis and loose ligament with wagging jaws. I manually mobilized the TMJ with figure eights and adjusted (cracked) it when necessary. I worked on all the muscles from buccinators, masseters, pterygoind, omo and stylohyoid and temporalis muscles. It is also important to work on the base of the skull and upper cervical spine. Additionally, I would work on the full spine as pelvic misalignments, leg length discrepancies and scoliois can strain the head and neck and consequently the TMJ.

[NZer1]

So you agree Dr.?

[uprightdoc]

Nigel,
I do have two books in the wings. The one I just about finished is getting bumped ahead. It's a short ebook with a specific target audiance. It's a fascinating topic about neurotoxins, neurotransmitters and ischemic cascades. It also covers autoimmune and complement immunological and inflammatory reactions in response to neurotoxins and their connection to connective tissue diseases such as Lupus erythematosis and rheumatoid arthritis, which I have discussed previously here as well as in my book.

I am doing much better and thanks for asking Blossom. This time I was ready with an antidote to the toxin and other specific remedies for side effects that worked very well. I will be covering them the book. I don't know that I will find a lawyer to take the case but I am sure going to try. This is a serious product liability issue that needs to be brought to light and the manufacturer held accountable. More importantly, patients need to be properly informed of the serious risks and side effects to watch for. Doctors also need to be alerted to the well known side effects and recogize blatant adverse reactions.