CCSVI, cause or symptom?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.
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Amir
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Re: MS is multifactorial

Post by Amir »

MarkW wrote:
For Copaxone, my best guess is that the immune system attacks the Copaxone molecule instead of myelin, reducing nerve damage
Kind regards,
MarkW
This sounds very much like wishful thinking.
The immune system probably does not 'attack' any myelin at all but only does some essential housekeeping following nerve death from various causes.
This is evident from many instantaneous improvements following CCSVI interventions, Atlas correction or TMJ interventions when the patients had previously been told with no uncertain terms that their various 'neuropathic' pains and ailments were due to demyelination.
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Johnnymac
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Re: CCSVI, cause or symptom?

Post by Johnnymac »

I'm enjoying this thread. One of the challenges the proponents of CCSVI have faced are those anomalies in statistics that cast doubt on it being the genesis of malfunction and MS symptoms. I have no doubt that blood flow is a huge piece of the MS puzzle, but there have to be many many factors that can contribute to flow issues. The sheer amount of pwms that have had transient benefits from balloon venoplasty is pretty good evidence that there is a lot of work to be done in determining all the causative factors of flow problems. I'm hopeful that every avenue that people travel down leads us to more answers.

EJC, good luck with everything, I am really hoping you guys see more lasting benefits and uncover another piece of the CCSVI/MS puzzle.

Cheers,
John
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civickiller
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Re: CCSVI, cause or symptom?

Post by civickiller »

As I have always been saying I am going to do 3 things
1. Start to eat healthy diet
2. Atlas misalignment correction, too bad there isn't someone in the us fixing jaw misalignment
3. ccsvI

I'm with your thinking EJC. I think we need to find the cause of ccsvi, I am hoping the first 2, diet and atlas correction would lead to no need for the ccsvi surgery
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EJC
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Re: CCSVI, cause or symptom?

Post by EJC »

civickiller wrote: I'm with your thinking EJC. I think we need to find the cause of ccsvi, I am hoping the first 2, diet and atlas correction would lead to no need for the ccsvi surgery
There are some downsides to posting what I do, which is why I'm so glad Amir posts here also. I don't want to give the impression we can all just wander off to the nearest Chiro/Osteo/physio or any other "o" and get them to "straighten the atlas".

Firstly, getting your "atlas corrected" isn't a completely straight forward thing, the key to the correction is solving why it's wonky to start with. That's where the jaw misalignment comes in.

I've come to the conclusion that MS is like an onion and we're peeling a layer back at a time, the thing is you need to attack each layer in the correct order to get to the middle bit. It's that order we seem to be getting to grips with.
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CureOrBust
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Re: MS is multifactorial

Post by CureOrBust »

Amir wrote:
MarkW wrote: For Copaxone, my best guess is that the immune system attacks the Copaxone molecule instead of myelin, reducing nerve damage
Kind regards,
MarkW
This sounds very much like wishful thinking.
...and research and trials and publications...
Amir wrote:The immune system probably does not 'attack' any myelin at all but only does some essential housekeeping following nerve death from various causes.
This is evident from many instantaneous improvements following CCSVI interventions, Atlas correction or TMJ interventions when the patients had previously been told with no uncertain terms that their various 'neuropathic' pains and ailments were due to demyelination.
My understanding of the current beliefs on the immune system attacks are that the immune system over reacts and continues to attack Myelin after the clean-up is complete, thus causing more damage; and hence the copaxone may help minimise this source of damage.

Note, "various 'neuropathic' pains and ailments" are normally resolved in RRMS using Steroids, with great effects, without CCSVI treatments or any "alignments". Do not shut out evidence, even if it disagrees with your own beliefs.

...glass houses?
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civickiller
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Re: CCSVI, cause or symptom?

Post by civickiller »

I'm already getting my atlas adjusted, that's why I said I wish I could find a dentist to fix my jaw and hopefully because I've been doing upper cervical care for about a year already, it's helping my jaw alignment
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Amir
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Re: MS is multifactorial

Post by Amir »

CureOrBust wrote:
My understanding of the current beliefs on the immune system attacks are that the immune system over reacts and continues to attack Myelin after the clean-up is complete, thus causing more damage; and hence the copaxone may help minimise this source of damage.

Note, "various 'neuropathic' pains and ailments" are normally resolved in RRMS using Steroids, with great effects, without CCSVI treatments or any "alignments". Do not shut out evidence, even if it disagrees with your own beliefs.

...glass houses?
You are welcome to your beliefs. Can I believe in mine?
Who puts out this research that you are harking about?
Where has copaxone and steroids got anybody?

The sufferers of MS are still in the same predicament as they ever were inspite of the immune modulating drugs and inspite of the steroids.
So please give some open discussion a chance and if you have a costructive criticism let us have it. People want to be rid of this illness. Most people cannot afford the cost of the medication nor stay a victim of the illness inspite of the expenditure.

I resolve most 'neuropathic pains and ailments' WITHOUT any drugs or STEROIDS and mostly permanently.

Show me any REAL evidence that either 'the drug' or steroids CURED anybody whatsoever.
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Re: CCSVI, cause or symptom?

Post by Johnnymac »

Steroids were a god-send at two different occasions for my wife. When she was first diagnosed back in 06 a 5 day intravenous solumedrol regiment brought her out of an exacerbation and helped her balance greatly. Back then she was still walking. In march of 2010, about 3 months after stopping Tysabri infusions she had lost control of her right hand due to severe ataxia and had a constant electric shock/tingling over the back-right quarter of her skull. About 2 weeks after a 3 day solumedrol treatment the ataxia went away as did the sensations in her skull. We were told at the time she was suffering from IRIS after discontinuing the tysabri.

Exacerbations in our experience have been directly related to inflammation in her brain, which steroids really help with. Treating the inflammation helped with the symptoms but not the MS, they may be related but lets not confuse treating symptoms related to inflammation with treating MS.

Lets not try to paint every MS patient with the same broad brush. We have to remember that MS is not a one size fits all disease.
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Re: MS is multifactorial

Post by Cece »

Any possibility of a randomized controlled trial? With a sham arm where the patients' jaws are not realigned, and a treatment arm where they are.

The drugs are imperfect, but there are randomized controlled trials backing them up.

We need the same for CCSVI too. Large scale multicenter prospective RCTs.
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Re: CCSVI, cause or symptom?

Post by blossom »

i see it as the proof is in the pudding! dr. amir has proof "the patients" with these symptoms they named ms. maybe some aren't totally cured but it helped symptoms "more important he is eliminating the cause." --he is not covering up symptoms say like pain with drugs. what he is doing is working for some.

just as dr. flanagan's knowledge has helped some. just as dr. sclafani is helping some--and not to forget DR. ZAMBONNI. even dr. zambonni had no studies research published papers----BUT-when we got wind of it and we saw people jumping in the air and saying how good they felt --bam--the proof was in the pudding. i was gonna do whatever it took. and, even though it did not end up the way some of us wanted it still carries enough merit because there "are these patients that benefited."

there are groups of us with these symptoms that may not benefit at all from dr. amir's work just as with the other dr.'s involved. at this point it's up for grabs.

but, with the dr.'s that have gotten envolved because ccsvi came about who have had some pretty good results-this is proof to me that this miserable demon someone named ms has many ugly heads and some of us are gonna need the army and there will be some that dr. amir may be the answer.

in the meantime the research papers and yada yada. well, the drug co.'s and other mainstream med. has paper work out the wazoo--and look how well we're doing.

the proof is in the pudding and that's a very good thing. having these dr.'s take an interest in us at the level they are is exciteing.
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Re: CCSVI, cause or symptom?

Post by CindyCB »

A couple of weeks ago I was given a steroid shot into my jaw to help relax the muscles and deal with inflammation on my TMJD side.

Within a couple of days I could walk straighter because my balance was much better and I could see better, less problems with depth perception. The neuralgic pain in my face, shoulder and arm eased right off and I got much better movement around that area too.

Now obviously I don't have inflammation in the brain but I clearly had it from TMJD. Perhaps when pwMS are given steroids it's working on just that kind of thing for them but the connection has never been made. The steroids don't fix anything and obviously aren't good for you longer term but perhaps they 'cool the effects' of the problem (TMJ dysfunction) to get you through a flare up.

No idea if that could be true but thought it makes an interesting comparison between my case/symptoms and pwMS.
Thyroid disease, Vitamin D deficiency, hypermobility, 'ME/CFS', CCSVI (stenosis both sides and assymetric malformed valves), TMJ - No MS but many neuro symptoms.
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EJC
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Re: CCSVI, cause or symptom?

Post by EJC »

Johnnymac wrote:Steroids were a god-send at two different occasions for my wife. When she was first diagnosed back in 06 a 5 day intravenous solumedrol regiment brought her out of an exacerbation and helped her balance greatly. Back then she was still walking. In march of 2010, about 3 months after stopping Tysabri infusions she had lost control of her right hand due to severe ataxia and had a constant electric shock/tingling over the back-right quarter of her skull. About 2 weeks after a 3 day solumedrol treatment the ataxia went away as did the sensations in her skull. We were told at the time she was suffering from IRIS after discontinuing the tysabri.

Exacerbations in our experience have been directly related to inflammation in her brain, which steroids really help with. Treating the inflammation helped with the symptoms but not the MS, they may be related but lets not confuse treating symptoms related to inflammation with treating MS.

Lets not try to paint every MS patient with the same broad brush. We have to remember that MS is not a one size fits all disease.
To the same end you could arrange to have high doses of valium or even morphine, everything goes away then!

All these drugs, all of them, treat a symptom and whilst these may provide some short term relief they are not addressing the fundamental problem or cause of any of the symptoms.
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EJC
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Re: MS is multifactorial

Post by EJC »

CureOrBust wrote:
Amir wrote:
MarkW wrote: For Copaxone, my best guess is that the immune system attacks the Copaxone molecule instead of myelin, reducing nerve damage
Kind regards,
MarkW
This sounds very much like wishful thinking.
...and research and trials and publications...
Amir wrote:The immune system probably does not 'attack' any myelin at all but only does some essential housekeeping following nerve death from various causes.
This is evident from many instantaneous improvements following CCSVI interventions, Atlas correction or TMJ interventions when the patients had previously been told with no uncertain terms that their various 'neuropathic' pains and ailments were due to demyelination.
My understanding of the current beliefs on the immune system attacks are that the immune system over reacts and continues to attack Myelin after the clean-up is complete, thus causing more damage; and hence the copaxone may help minimise this source of damage.

Note, "various 'neuropathic' pains and ailments" are normally resolved in RRMS using Steroids, with great effects, without CCSVI treatments or any "alignments". Do not shut out evidence, even if it disagrees with your own beliefs.

...glass houses?
Note "various 'neuropathic' pains and ailments" are normally resolved in RRMS using Steroids, with great effects.

They are not resolved, the drugs supress the pain they don't resolve the issue, you are treating a symptom whereas jaw misalignment/Atlasbalance/CCSVI treats a problem.

As for the Copaxone, the drug companies can produce all the papers and research they want, why don't you actually call them and ask them how it works? They don't know. Even the pharmacist amoung us states it's a "best guess" despite Millions being spent on a trial.

The drugs are convential medicines answer to a problem they don't understand.

You may feel free to continue to believe in drugs, we have seen through the sham now and chosen our own route which has so far provided more relief than any drug to date.
Last edited by EJC on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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EJC
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Re: MS is multifactorial

Post by EJC »

Cece wrote:Any possibility of a randomized controlled trial? With a sham arm where the patients' jaws are not realigned, and a treatment arm where they are.

The drugs are imperfect, but there are randomized controlled trials backing them up.

We need the same for CCSVI too. Large scale multicenter prospective RCTs.
Well, again this all comes back to money doesn't it.

Who is going to pay for a randomised controlled trial when there's no bottle of pills to sell at the back end for $Billions?

It's left to us to find out what works and what doesn't.

There are those that believe the drugs they are pumping into their system are helping, they are free to continue. Who am I to tell them they are wrong?

Then there are those of us that believe in taking any possible route that involves not pumping drugs into our system (many of which even the manufacturers don't know how they work or what they do).

Emma still takes valium on the days she gets neuralgic pain, nothing else works. Thankfully since she started jaw treatment, these days are getting fewer and fewer as time progresses.
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Re: CCSVI, cause or symptom?

Post by Amir »

Johnnymac wrote:Steroids were a god-send at two different occasions for my wife. When she was first diagnosed back in 06 a 5 day intravenous solumedrol regiment brought her out of an exacerbation and helped her balance greatly. Back then she was still walking. In march of 2010, about 3 months after stopping Tysabri infusions she had lost control of her right hand due to severe ataxia and had a constant electric shock/tingling over the back-right quarter of her skull. About 2 weeks after a 3 day solumedrol treatment the ataxia went away as did the sensations in her skull. We were told at the time she was suffering from IRIS after discontinuing the tysabri.

Exacerbations in our experience have been directly related to inflammation in her brain, which steroids really help with. Treating the inflammation helped with the symptoms but not the MS, they may be related but lets not confuse treating symptoms related to inflammation with treating MS.

Lets not try to paint every MS patient with the same broad brush. We have to remember that MS is not a one size fits all disease.
Interesting.
I did not know what IRIS stood for and I googled for an explanation. Lo and behold I hit your other postings on a different thread:

http://www.thisisms.com/forum/tysabri-a ... 10964.html
3 months after her last infusion she had about 5 days where there was a tingling/electric shock type feeling in the upper rear right portion of her skull (like when your foot/hand falls asleep). About 4 weeks ago she started having episodes of dizzyness accompanied by slurred speech which is still going on, happens between 8-12 times a day for 5-20 seconds at a time.

Well the Neuro today ordered a steroid pulse and informed us that between 4-6 months out from discontinuing Tysabri that there is a risk of IRIS or Immune Reconstitution Inflammatory Syndrome (and that it is important to get on another MS drug once the Tysabri has cleaned out of the system). This wasn't mentioned in relation to PML, but to anyone stopping Tysabri after being on it for a long period of time.

So, not only is there PML to consider with Tysabri, but also IRIS once a patient comes off Tysabri which seems inevitable at some point considering the unknowns around long-term Tysabri use.
With due respect, in my experience, none of the symptoms you mention have anything to do with 'brain inflammation' The right occipital area is very tender on palpation in almost every MS sufferer. (All the readers with MS may want to palpate and confirm this. You may have to palpate really hard at the base of the skull on the right. A few patients will have the left side more painful)

The effects on the hand and arm are a result of asymmetry of the neck vertebrae and the nerve roots emanating from the neck and traversing through very inflamed muscles. The 'magic bullet' of steroids pacifies the suboccipital muscles so one gets an abatement of symptoms and albeit a false sense of security because the underlying problem continues to get worse.

All the issues you raise are a direct result of Jaw asymmetry, not brain inflammation, as I have often seen and very treatable without the need of some magic potions. The success depends very much on how long the problem has been going on, how much damage the nerves have suffered due to palliative measures which have only suppressed the symptoms and NEVER CURED any of them.

Perhaps it should be called Symptom Suppressing Medication (SSM).

I am also intrigued by what you meant about the "Steroid Pulse" Perhaps you can enlighten me.

It is also important to note that Immune Reconstitution Inflammatory Syndrome (IRIS) is perhaps another ruse to get a second SSM going for the cabal.
It is actually the re-occurence of a symptom which was previously suppressed by the SSM and the underlying damage continued and on stopping the SSM it has reared its' ugly head. It has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with 'Immune Reconstitution'.
Last edited by Amir on Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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