Seeing a Neuro

[marbie]

Hi all,

It's been a while since my first post, when I shared my symptoms but had not yet been to my GP.

I have since seen my GP a few times who did numerous blood tests, including B12 and Lyme, among others. All came back within range. She seemed to brush off many of my symptoms. For example, I told her that I get hot VERY easily, even when doing light housework and when I exercise I feel like I'm going to die afterwards (apparently steam rises from my head which can be seen in winter..) because I'm trembling, weak, and my eyes go dark. Her response is that this is normal. Not from what I have seen of anyone I know...She also kept asking how much of an issue my symptoms were, like she didn't think they were worth pursuing, but wanted to know which symptoms worried me the most so she could point me in some other direction. A couple of times she had to consult with another Dr. (she is a resident). She didn't think that any of my symptoms warranted seeing a neuro.

It's hard for me to really speak up in a Doc appt because I often feel like I'm being rushed. Luckily they have a message system and I asked for a referral through that.

My symptoms seem to be worse than when I last posted. When speaking, more and more I'm forgetting basic words and either have long pauses while thinking or I just give up on the sentence and start a new one. My mind seems blank and it's frustratingly difficult to even think about thinking about more than one thing. I work under dissecting microscopes a lot and it seems like I'm having a harder time with fine movements due to a light tremble in my hands (I had previously thought this was due to caffeine but it is happening even though I'm cutting down). My legs are constantly tight and my massage therapist said they're the tightest quads she's ever done. My reflexes are ridiculous too...if you tap on my knee or even a bit above on the quad, my lower leg will shoot out and keep swinging until all energy is out. I think I might have clonus as well, which I've noticed recently...when I'm tired, hot, or hungry and I go down the stairs, when I put my weight on the ball of my foot, it bounces until I'm on my next foot, repeat.

Anyway, my neuro appt. is later this month and they're doing an EMG. Has anyone had their first neuro appt. be for EMG? I'm assuming there will be a portion where he'll do a neurological exam.

Sorry if this post seems very here and there, I just needed to share.

[Youarethecure]

It is good to see you are seeing a neurologist.

Do you have any family history of MS or anything? Do you smoke cigarettes?

You are taking the right steps to figuring out what is going on with you. Just try and relax and wait for your appt. I know that is hard, but honestly at this point it is what it is. No matter what happens, stressing over it will not help in any way.

Best wishes,

Chris

[lyndacarol]

marbie, the symptoms you gave us in your first post (http://www.thisisms.com/forum/post230164.html#p230164) were consistent with a vitamin B12 deficiency, among many other conditions.

I am glad to hear that your GP screened for a possible deficiency; I assume this was thorough testing with #1 serum B12 test (I have learned that the newer, more accurate HoloTranscobalamin test is preferred, but it is not yet available everywhere.), #2 RBC folate, #3 serum homocysteine test, and #4 a methylmalonic acid test. (The standard range for the serum B12 test results in the US is considered by many to be outdated and set too low. For instance, in Japan, test results below 500 pg/mL are treated as deficient while in the US the cutoff is generally 200 pg/mL.)

A healthy diet (no trans fats/processed foods, no artificial sweeteners, low in carbohydrates,…) might be helpful to you – even going so far as to try to eat organic food. (I recently learned that glyphosate, a.k.a. Roundup, is used on many food crops and can bind up minerals and vitamins, like magnesium, iron, zinc, and vitamin B12.)

By the way, one of the first tests I got at the neuro's office was an EMG. The EMG results (and my first 3 MRIs) were all perfectly "normal."

[marbie]

Chris, no history of MS (that I'm aware of) but history of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. Not a smoker and never have been. Thanks for your support and advice!

lynda, I'm aware that there are other conditions. My GP saw no reason to continue down the B12 lane - my serum level is normal, I am at very low risk for deficiency (young, eat well, no conditions that would reduce absorption), and the entirety of my CBC workup was normal (not anemic).

I already eat a pretty healthy diet. I also only use paraben/pthalate/sulfate free bathroom products. I'm a scientist and have worked as an environmental consultant, so I keep track of the whole organic/GMO/eat natural world. I'd like to know where you heard glyphosate binds minerals (assuming you mean that the result is less nutritious food). That claim is unsubstantiated. http://www.biofortified.org/2011/02/doe ... al-uptake/

I appreciate you letting me know that you got an EMG as a first test.

[Youarethecure]

I do not know much about Parkinson's and I don't mean to scare you, but is it possible it could be the early stages of that?

[lyndacarol]

lynda, ...I'm a scientist and have worked as an environmental consultant, so I keep track of the whole organic/GMO/eat natural world. I'd like to know where you heard glyphosate binds minerals (assuming you mean that the result is less nutritious food). That claim is unsubstantiated. http://www.biofortified.org/2011/02/doe ... al-uptake/

I have no medical or scientific background.

I realize that there is controversy over GMO crops: Dr. Nancy L. Swanson, who has a Ph.D. in physics and worked as a staff scientist for the United States Navy, holds five U.S. patents and is the author of over 30 scientific publications and two books on women in science.

Her peer-reviewed paper has caused a stir over the dangers of Roundup (glyphosate-based herbicide). http://sustainablepulse.com/wp-content/ ... alth-1.pdf

On page 1: "In the case of glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, glyphosate-resistant enzymes are isolated from a strain of Agrobacterium. These are inserted into the genes of the plant via a multi-step process resulting in a plant that can withstand direct application of the herbicide."

My concern is this ability to survive and absorb applications of glyphosate.

http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416

Glyphosate’s Suppression of Cytochrome P450 Enzymes and Amino Acid Biosynthesis by the Gut Microbiome: Pathways to Modern Diseases

On page 1436, 10.3. A Role for Zinc Deficiency.
"Glyphosate’s known ability to itself chelate divalent cations is likely a factor as well."
I understand this to mean that glyphosate binds to (chelates) +2 cations – minerals like magnesium, iron, zinc, and cobalt. Cobalt is found in vitamin B12 (a.k.a. cobalamin).

As an aside on another topic (vitamin D3 deficiency) of interest to ThisIsMS members, the authors offer their suspicions… On page 1443
"Glyphosate could also be a factor in the current epidemic in vitamin D3 deficiency [166] through its disruption of the CYP enzymes that activate this hormone in the liver [164,165]."

[marbie]

I realize that there is controversy over GMO crops: Dr. Nancy L. Swanson, who has a Ph.D. in physics and worked as a staff scientist for the United States Navy, holds five U.S. patents and is the author of over 30 scientific publications and two books on women in science.

She is a physicist, not a chemist or agriculturist. I applaud her for writing about women in science (something close to my heart) and I'm sure she's an excellent physicist, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize this work.

Her peer-reviewed paper has caused a stir over the dangers of Roundup (glyphosate-based herbicide). http://sustainablepulse.com/wp-content/ ... alth-1.pdf

This is most definitely NOT a peer reviewed paper. No academic journal would publish something that uses correlation to imply causation (or allow such shoddy formatting).

On page 1: "In the case of glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, glyphosate-resistant enzymes are isolated from a strain of Agrobacterium. These are inserted into the genes of the plant via a multi-step process resulting in a plant that can withstand direct application of the herbicide."

Not sure what your point is here. Let me be clear that I am not supporting Monsanto and similar because I don't agree with much of what they do. However, I'm also not a believer that GMO's are inherently bad. They are created so that we can increase crop production (by reducing plant disease and pests) and thus be capable of feeding billions of people. The truth of the matter is that without alternative farming practices, the option would be less produce. I also hate the word "toxin" - a catch-all word for anything that sounds gross or "chemically". But mainly I am against people believing bad science. I don't doubt that there may be negative effects from long-term small doses of glyphosate. I do extremely doubt all these claims that it causes autism, diabetes, and the like.

Her graphs are ridiculous. She uses numbers of new cases (not percents) of many diseases. That's a great way to make something like this look like it's on the rise and induce fear. While some may be rising (obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure), others have stayed constant. The CDC says Autism is averaged around 1% each year, but due to population increase each year, Swanson's graph makes it people think it's becoming more prevalent. It's not. I find it bothersome that people are latching on to this. I could make a graph showing percent of pregnant women that drink skim milk at least once a day (which has probably increased) and show that next to number of autism diagnoses and say skim milk might cause autism. That's essentially what Swanson is doing here.

My concern is this ability to survive and absorb applications of glyphosate."
http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416

Glyphosate’s Suppression of Cytochrome P450 Enzymes and Amino Acid Biosynthesis by the Gut Microbiome: Pathways to Modern Diseases

On page 1436, 10.3. A Role for Zinc Deficiency.
"Glyphosate’s known ability to itself chelate divalent cations is likely a factor as well."
I understand this to mean that glyphosate binds to (chelates) +2 cations – minerals like magnesium, iron, zinc, and cobalt. Cobalt is found in vitamin B12 (a.k.a. cobalamin).

As an aside on another topic (vitamin D3 deficiency) of interest to ThisIsMS members, the authors offer their suspicions… On page 1443
"Glyphosate could also be a factor in the current epidemic in vitamin D3 deficiency [166] through its disruption of the CYP enzymes that activate this hormone in the liver [164,165]."

Let me point you to this article which is a great review. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3479986/ and this paragraph:
"These large ratios do not support the view that the chelator properties of glyphosate would interfere substantially with plant mineral nutrition in planta. Furthermore, at very high in vivo concentrations of glyphosate in the plant phloem, glyphosate has been calculated to be unable to effectively compete for Fe–2+, Fe–3+, Ca–2+, Mn–2+, Mg–2+, Cu–2+, and Zn–2+ with biological chelating agents.⁸¹"

In addition, just because something is a factor does not mean it's the primary factor. Vitamin D3 deficiency may be 92% due to absence of direct sunlight on the skin while on 7% due to chronic glyphosate ingestion and still be considered a factor (numbers made up for use in this example).

[marbie]

Chris, I don't believe so. From what I have heard, my grandfather's Parkinson's was something environmental and a high percentage of the men he worked with for years also developed it.

[Youarethecure]

Well I am out of input to give haha.

best of luck, and let us know what happens.

[lyndacarol]

Not sure what your point is here.

I apologize that I was not clear. As a nonscientist, I was trying to say that the issue is not GMO's for me – I have not seen enough evidence to determine my position on GMO crops.

My concern is about the glyphosate that is being used liberally in our environment because crops are now able to survive it – yes, it kills the weeds; but I fear there are detrimental effects still to be revealed. This reluctance to embrace innovation probably stems from my age and conservativism. I have seen too many breakthrough medications that were only to be recalled soon after release on the market. (I also don't have a cell phone!)

On page 1: "In the case of glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, glyphosate-resistant enzymes are isolated from a strain of Agrobacterium. These are inserted into the genes of the plant via a multi-step process resulting in a plant that can withstand direct application of the herbicide."

My concern is this ability to survive and absorb applications of glyphosate.

I'd like to know where you heard glyphosate binds minerals...

Again, as a nonscientist, I do not have access to the information that you have; I try to do the best I can to read and accumulate ideas from everyday sources available to me, rather than academic or scientific publications, which are not. And, in the end, I am trying to make the best decision for my own personal life and my family.

I do appreciate your contributions to my process: "Let me point you to this article which is a great review. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3479986/ " – I do, of course, want to eat the most nutrient-dense plants (fruits and vegetables) possible; but I am also concerned about what residual glyphosate might do to the minerals inside my own body (or the bodies of animal-sourced foods, who eat glyphosate-containing crops). For me personally, it is more comfortable to support a gluten-free, and even organic, lifestyle.