Dysbiosis in the gut microbiota of pwMS . . .

[PointsNorth]

Dysbiosis in the Gut Microbiota of Patients with Multiple Sclerosis, with a Striking Depletion of Species Belonging to Clostridia XIVa and IV Clusters

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... ne.0137429

[1eye]

Dysbiosis in the Gut Microbiota of Patients with Multiple Sclerosis, with a Striking Depletion of Species Belonging to Clostridia XIVa and IV Clusters

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... ne.0137429

Now we're getting somewhere. We knew from the work with biotin that there is a gut connection, and it seems the gut endothelium must also come into it. It may be as much the balance of the depleted species with the overabundant ones that causes our familiar symptoms. I wonder why they have not tried the murine model which requires CSF from MS patients?

I guess fecal transplants are a good idea, and now we know why... will just any healthy donor do, or is there an ideal one?

[1eye]

Having glanced at this paper it seems daunting to make any reasonable comment on it, as it is very technical. To me there is some news to be had in many areas:

• gut bacteria do seem to be more and more well-known, being identifiable using DNA analysis

• the gut bacteria of Japanese MS sufferers has about 20 depleted strains and two strains with higher populations from those of healthy Japanese controls

• it is thought to be a very real possibility that these bacteria are involved in the primary pathogenesis of both inflammatory and progressive forms of Japanese MS

Of course being cutting-edge research many questions remain. For one thing, this study is done under the assumption that there is an environmental element that is unique to Japanese MS sufferers. I don't know if any attempt was made to verify or elucidate any difference between Japanese and other MS sufferers or Japanese and other healthy controls. These results might not be able to be extrapolated to MS in other national populations.

I am afraid of people misinterpreting these results and experimenting with antibiotics. If anything this research shows Japanese (and other?) MS sufferers have no reduction in overall bacterial population, only differences in relative prevalence of a very limited number of strains.

[NHE]

Dr. David Perlmutter is interviewed about his new book Brain Maker which focuses on the gut microbiome and its effect on brain health, autism, diabetes, obesity, asthma, etc.



His talk is broadcast often on PBS so check your local listings. In his talk he discusses a patient of his with MS who received a series of fecal microbiota transplants. The MS patient is now walking unassisted and is no longer using a cane.

[1eye]

I guess the diet of Dr. Wahls is high enough in prebiotic fiber to take care of her biome (am I catching on to the lingo?). I think I read somewhere the only hunter-gatherers left in the world have 1500 different gut species, where the rest of the world averages only 1000. The big differences in their diet being: the low consumption of meat vs the rest, and the very high consumption of fiber.

Another interesting stat: 99% of the DNA in our bodies is human. I don't know how they figure that; I guess it has something to do with the variety of gut species -- but really, is is true? Don't a lot of the bacteria share the same DNA? I would think that if you studied the differences you would be able to pin down how those 21 species differ from the rest, that can affect MS. Then it might be QED. The end of the road for MS.

[Leonard]

Great thread, great interview with David Perlmutter, everybody should see... He mentions how gut bacteria are changing the expression of your DNA... and let food be thy medicin....

From this site https://colloque4.inra.fr/inra_rowett_2 ... -materials you can download the congress materials. In Session 2, there are many abstracts on the "Interplay between the intestinal microbiota and the host".

What I have learned in the meanwhile is that genetics and epi-genetics are not as orthogonal as people have always thought.
And that the microbiome controls the (epi-)genes where bacteria strains drive phenotypes.

[1eye]

This conference was from 2012. Have there been any such gatherings since then?

[Leonard]

yes, there have been further gatherings see e.g. https://www.abdn.ac.uk/events/rowett-in ... gramme.pdf

but I have not been able to find abstracts that you could download...

[1eye]

There are so many people that I've seen, here and elsewhere, that are all excited to drop their nuclear antibiotic bombs on human guts, that I predict a storm of controversy over tick bites, chlamydia, etc.

There is also the chicken-and-egg argument that says that some agent causes MS, and it is this agent that is also causing the dysbiosis.

I think it would be much more fruitful to analyze the function that these bacteria are providing in normal people and not providing in the case of MS. There might be some as-yet-unheard-of pathway between brain/nervous-system and gut biome (maybe the peripheral nerves, such as the vagus?).

As a technologist, the interface between bacterial culture and human physiology (immune, digestive, nervous or other system) is what interests me. All I know about bacteria is about the single microbe as an independent single-celled creature, but what if more than 1 of a species or larger numbers of bacteria act together to perform some intelligent function useful to humans? What if the immune system has organs that are actually made of colonies of bacteria? Or some other system, perhaps more involved in catching food than digesting it?

Don't kill the biome (he says as he prepares a chemical feast to prepare for an endoscopy)!

[1eye]

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14041 ... s4654.html
http://summit-registration.gutmicrobiot ... RAM-V4.PDF
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25574083
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 564847.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 483.x/full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 271797.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 560413.pdf
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0 ... 0346-1/pdf
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0 ... 1279-1/pdf
Take the title of a paper or talk you are interested in and put it into Google. See what pops out...

[1eye]

An infectious cause of multiple sclerosis (MS) has been speculated, though the potential for gastrointestinal pathogens to exert neurological effects remotely (as seen with many clostridium species) has not been considered likely. In 2011, Borody et al.[38] reported three wheelchair-bound patients with MS treated with FMT for constipation. Bowel symptoms resolved following FMT; however, in all cases, there was also a progressive and dramatic improvement in neurological symptoms, with all three patients regaining the ability to walk unassisted. Two of the patients with prior indwelling urinary catheters experienced restoration of urinary function. In one patient of the three, follow-up MRI 15 years after FMT showed a halting of disease progression and ‘no evidence of active disease’.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... -30-97.pdf

[Scott1]

Hi,
There is a pathway between the brain and gut and all things in between. It's the nitrate-nitrite-NO pathway. Nitrites were for a long time considered to be a waste product in NO production. It is now the hot area. Nitrites are now seen as a store for nitric oxide production in hypoxic conditions which are common in inflammation. The action is also PH conditional.
NO is a major messenger in talk between cells.
If you look at the diets that are reputed to be successful you will see an emphasis on dark green leafy vegetables, beets and fresh fruits. They are all prolific suppliers of nitrite. The nitrite interacts with saliva to start the conversion to NO. Mouthwashes significantly nullify the process. Throw them away.
There are as many neurons in the gut as there are in the brain. It's surface area is massive. In that sense your gut is a second brain. The health of the synergistically beneficial gut bacteria will obviously impact the quality of the messages from your gut to all the organs and tissues of your body.
Definitely take a good, diverse array of probiotics and eat the foods that are prolific sources of nitrite.
Regards,

[lyndacarol]

There is a pathway between the brain and gut and all things in between. It's the nitrate-nitrite-NO pathway. Nitrites were for a long time considered to be a waste product in NO production. It is now the hot area. Nitrites are now seen as a store for nitric oxide production in hypoxic conditions which are common in inflammation. The action is also PH conditional.
NO is a major messenger in talk between cells.
If you look at the diets that are reputed to be successful you will see an emphasis on dark green leafy vegetables, beets and fresh fruits. They are all prolific suppliers of nitrite. The nitrite interacts with saliva to start the conversion to NO. Mouthwashes significantly nullify the process. Throw them away.
There are as many neurons in the gut as there are in the brain. It's surface area is massive. In that sense your gut is a second brain. The health of the synergistically beneficial gut bacteria will obviously impact the quality of the messages from your gut to all the organs and tissues of your body.
Definitely take a good, diverse array of probiotics and eat the foods that are prolific sources of nitrite.

From 2/20/2014 "Can Mouthwash Cause a Heart Attack?" (4 1/2 min. video)
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/disturb ... 1992010001

New research shows that antiseptic mouthwash can be dangerous. It may kill off too many bacteria in the mouth; some of them are supposed to be there
@1:50 they make gas (not identified, but I assume is nitric oxide), which is absorbed into the body and relaxes the blood vessels. Oz recommends we use mouthwash once a day, rinse for about 30 seconds, and use at night.

In addition, proteins (R-factors) made in the salivary glands are necessary in the pathway of vitamin B12 absorption. I suspect that these may be negatively affected by alcohol in antiseptic wash.… Everything is connected.

[1eye]

From the Japanese study:

Two species were more abundant and 19 were less abundant in the micro-
biota of MS20 subjects than in that of HC40 subjects.

The 16S-based taxonomic assignment of the 21 species revealed that 4 species were assigned to the phylum Bacteroidetes, 1 was assigned to Actinobacteria, 1 was assigned to Proteobacteria, and 15 were assigned to Firmicutes.

Five other less abundant species in MS20 samples were classified into three genera:
Bacteroides (B. stercoris, B. coprocola, and B. coprophilus), Prevotella(P. copri), and Sutterella (S. wadsworthensis).

In this taxonomic assignment, rclust00054, which was assigned to S. thermophilus with 100% identity, also had 99.7% identity with S.salivarius, suggesting that rclust00054 might consist of these two species that are indistinguishable by the analysis based on the 16S sequence.

The only mention I saw of salivarius is in this context of the two bacteria that are more prevalent in MS. That would mean that it is maybe ok to use mouthwash if the aim is to reduce one of these two.

Also note the reference

16. Said HS, Suda W, Nakagome S, Chinen H, Oshima K, Kim S, et al. Dysbiosis of salivary microbiota in inflammatory bowel disease and its association with oral immunologic biomarkers. DNA Res. 2014;21: 15–25. doi: 10.1093/dnares/dst037. pmid:24013298

[Scott1]

Hi,

Don't use mouthwash. Take a very good probiotic and drink something like pomegranate juice which is polyphenol rich.
If you have bad breath that wont go away you may have little deposits of matter in the crypts at the back of your mouth that harden into little white stones. They can be squeezed out and the bad breath goes away. Anecdotally, gargling with salt water or eating sauerkraut is supposed to work but there is no thorough medical research. The stones eventually work their way free anyway. The salivary papillae shoot out nets of mucin to protect our teeth. The tonsillar ring at the back of the mouth is part of the immune system. Mouthwash disturbs these processes. Do clean your teeth as that clears away decaying material.
Nitric oxide forms in the mouth when saliva (purified blood) interacts with nitrites from food. We do want this to happen.
Regards