Hello

[jimmylegs]

have at er lol. i started looking for some info on specific nutrients for liver health but when i found a credible looking source and they didn't even hint at zinc, i didn't bother posting the link!

re solgar vm 75, looks okay - with d3 as ergocalciferol being the most pronounced exception to my eye at least.
you're right about it rounding out the nutritional picture a bit better, although of course you may not need to limit it to just 3 tabs per week. depends what else you're planning.

hope your liver tests show good results but at this point you are working on so many things i would think it will be hard to attribute improvements to one particular component of the regimen. too many confounders.

glad to see the upgrade to mag citrate.
for next bottle this looks one step better http://www.solgar.com/solgarproducts/ch ... ablets.htm
and this one step better again https://www.vitacost.com/solaray-magnes ... n-capsules
note: you may continue to see benefits in the stress mgmt and sleep departments, in conjunction with improvements to magnesium intake level, plus degree of absorption associated with supplement form/quality

since your access to testing is downright amazing, why not have tests before phlebotomy to test current regimen, *and* 1wk after procedure to test impact on ferritin in particular, plus 45 days later to assess revised regimen. the main caution i have when it comes to testing is that it can give you 'track marks' (JL peers at slight divot in right forearm, legacy of the era of high testing frequency).

glad you have made such excellent progress in the nutrition department so important!

[Zyklon]

3 days a week is for trying maintenance dose. I guess it will be enough for B vitamins and others. I know %90 of things I do is placebo but as long as other %10 works without side effects I am happy. Solgar is widely available here and priced ok, not much options. Tests tomorrow and this time wife will be tested aswell. I am %99.9 sure she is D3, B12 and calcium deficient. Next Episode: Optimizing wife

Disclaimer: I strongly recommend you to NOT try anything I have done. Below includes possibly dangerous activity for your health. Consult your doctors.

I did some weird/unexpected things this weekend. My wife offered me to go to a spa center. MS and a weekend in a spa center?Sounds crazy? Here it is my little 2 days long story.

As I mentioned before I had some heat regulation problems and fever. On the paper spa centers is one of the most risky places for me with saunas, warm pools, hot indoors. Nowadays I read lots of things about vagus nerve as I have spinal lesions. Massage and hot/cold stimulation maybe good for vagus nerve. Spa centers are known for healthy massages. My idea was even only for massage, a spa center could be beneficial for me and worth trying.

First day I could not book a massage, my mistake for not booking earlier. So I looked for alternatives. Suddenly a whirlpool with 36-38 degrees Celcius temperature seemed worth trying. I thought it was close to my body temperature and my temperature would not raise very fast and symptoms appear slowly. Risky? Absolutely. I wanted to try and spent 10 minutes in it. Result was surprisingly no symptoms at all. I expected at least some vision changes or increased numbness. Nothing...

There was a colder mineral water pool next to it, 30-32 degrees Celcius. I know hot to cold is a good way to stimulate vagus nerve. I relaxed 15-20 minutes in it. There was numbness in my feet fingers and some tightness in my shoulders. Both went away after it, completely disappeared. I have no idea about the reason behind it. How?

After feeling confident, I tried a heated stone bed. It felt good. Then an ice cooled room, 10-12 degrees Celcius. No problems. Why not a sauna? I stayed 1 minute in a 45 degrees Celcius %50 humidity herbal sauna as an ultimate heat tolerance test. Nothing happened. My core body temperature was 36.9 degrees Celcius after all. What a surprise!

Next day I had two massages. I discovered some tingly spots on my back. I can easily say my spine area is different and I am more pressure sensitive than before. Nothing major that day.

The whole experience scared me a little bit and made me happy. I am scared because it looks like I continue to deny limits and happy because it still works. I guess it is a part of denial phase. Denial until failure and learning from it. Or big big big questions: "Is MS the ultimate denial challenge?", "Is being healthy depends on how much can I ignore?", "Is it all in my head?"

[NHE]

3 days a week is for trying maintenance dose. I guess it will be enough for B vitamins and others. I know %90 of things I do is placebo but as long as other %10 works without side effects I am happy. Solgar is widely available here and priced ok, not much options. Tests tomorrow and this time wife will be tested aswell. I am %99.9 sure she is D3, B12 and calcium deficient. Next Episode: Optimizing wife

Be wary of calcium supplements. It's best to get calcium from food sources. Calcium supplements have been found to cause hypercalcification in the blood which leads to calcium plating out in your arteries and veins.

• Are Calcium Pills Hardening Your Heart Arteries?
  
  Millions of women routinely take calcium pills to build strong bones.
  Instead, they may be creating calcified coronary arteries. What else can
  you do?
  
  https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2016/10 ... -arteries/

Here's a link to good food sources of calcium.

http://whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nu ... #foodchart

[jimmylegs]

ratios being key. high calcium magnesium intake ratio from food and/or supplements is less than ideal.

Suboptimal magnesium status in the United States: are the health consequences underestimated? (2012)
https://academic.oup.com/nutritionrevie ... ted-States
In comparison with calcium, magnesium is an “orphan nutrient” that has been studied considerably less heavily. Low magnesium intakes and blood levels have been associated with type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, elevated C-reactive protein, hypertension, atherosclerotic vascular disease, sudden cardiac death, osteoporosis, migraine headache, asthma, and colon cancer. Almost half (48%) of the US population consumed less than the required amount of magnesium from food in 2005–2006, and the figure was down from 56% in 2001–2002. Surveys conducted over 30 years indicate rising calcium-to-magnesium food-intake ratios among adults and the elderly in the United States, excluding intake from supplements, which favor calcium over magnesium. The prevalence and incidence of type 2 diabetes in the United States increased sharply between 1994 and 2001 as the ratio of calcium-to-magnesium intake from food rose from <3.0 to =3.0. Dietary Reference Intakes determined by balance studies may be misleading if subjects have chronic latent magnesium deficiency but are assumed to be healthy. Cellular magnesium deficit, perhaps involving TRPM6/7 channels, elicits calcium-activated inflammatory cascades independent of injury or pathogens. Refining the magnesium requirements and understanding how low magnesium status and rising calcium-to-magnesium ratios influence the incidence of type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, osteoporosis, and other inflammation-related disorders are research priorities.

[Zyklon]

I guess our diet includes plenty calcium. I am at the upper limits with an increasing trend. I limit my milk intake and do not take any supplements with calcium. I think about taking K2 vitamin.

Tomorrow she will have a baseline and I will have the results for my current regime. I am very curious about B12 since I take 1000 mcg once a week and if 3000 IU D3 daily is enough for maintenance. I did great with optimizing. Maintenance is another story. Unless massive dietary changes, it must be a matter of trial and error within safety limits.

[jimmylegs]

i too will be very curious to see your next test results! i think you'll find 3000IU d3 per day is enough for maintenance and i'll be very curious to see how calcium and magnesium levels, among others, are interacting. also curious for updates on ferritin, zinc and copper. i'm not a pro on k2 but if calcium is on the rise, probably couldn't hurt!

[Zyklon]

New results: (Previous test was 1 month ago)

Creatine 0.79 mg/dL
Potassium 4.28 mmol/L (Previous: 4.07)
Phosphorus 3.30 mg/dL (Previous: 3)

D3 57 mg/dL (Previous: 58.37, spot on maintenance dose 3000 IU daily for summer. I guess I will need 5000-6000 IU daily in winter)
Calcium 10.10 mg/dL (Previous: 9.90, almost no change, just like D3, needs careful monitoring and even more reduced calcium intake)
Magnesium 2.25 mg/dL (Previous: 2.10, nice increase, needs more monitoring)

Vitamin B12 628 pg/mL (Previous: 711, it confirms 1000 mcg a week is not enough, 3 days a week Solgar VM75 will give 225mcg additional B12)
Copper 90 µg/dL (Previous: 108, 3 days Solgar VM75 will give additional 3 mg copper, I don't think it will be enough but worth waiting 1 month for new tests)
Zinc 80 µg/dL (Previous: 115, just woooow for such a decrease in one month. 3 days Solgar VM75 will give additional 30 mg Zinc)

I guess my body using plenty of zinc to get rid of ferritin. Maybe this : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12097660

Please comment on my new regimen:

4000 IU D3 + 100 mg magnesium citrate + 100 mg vitamin K2 daily after breakfast
Solgar Milk Thistle daily after snack 10:30 AM (Possibly for only 1 month)
Solgar VM 75 on tuesday/thursday/saturday after lunch
1000 mcg B12 every monday after lunch
22 mg zinc prolinate every wednesday/sunday after lunch
Solgar Advanced Antioxidant daily after snack 16:30 PM
100 mg magnesium citrate daily after dinner

[jimmylegs]

serum d3 is more than fine, given increasing serum calcium i definitely agree that you'll need to reduce dietary calcium and increase magnesium. re mag level, keep going for minimum 2.3!
re regimen, not sure why you've moved to 4000 IU d3 daily when 3000 is doing the trick already, d3 level is great *and* calcium is on the rise which you don't want *and* magnesium is suboptimal (though headed in the right direction).
good to get mag and k with the d3 for certain. also good to see separate mag intake away from the d3.

i don't think you necessarily have a b12 problem; 628 and 711 are both good numbers. adding the multivitamin-mineral is a good idea anyway.

zinc copper ratio has flipped; not good news. previously, near ideal 1.06. now only 0.88. hopefully the amounts of copper in relation to zinc in multivitamin-mineral will help sort you out.

absolutely supplemental zinc can be expected to reduce serum ferritin; that is one reason why i'm very curious to see where your serum ferritin is at, with serum zinc up closer to 120 if possible. 10 mg zinc is about the minimum intake you'll want daily (upper limit is 40), so any particularly zinc rich foods will help get that serum level higher. also, consider whether your consumption of foods known to interfere with zinc status is high, resulting in higher personal zinc intake requirement.

that's my 2 cents for the time being!

[Zyklon]

I guess I can go 65 mg/dL. I have room for reducing calcium intake, less dairy. 3500-4000 IU will do the trick. I am very close to find my ideal summer dose.

3 x 100 mg magnesium citrate daily for one month and test again then.

I want 750-850 pg/mL range for B12. Addition of multivitamin may be enough with weekly 1000 mcg.

I am almost sure decrease of zinc and fever is all about ferritin. My fever is much better maybe because ferritin level is 1400 now. It was down from 2000+. Weekly, 4 x 22 mg zinc prolinate + 4 x 5 mg zinc glycinate from Solgar Advanced Antioxidant + 3 x 10 mg zinc oxide from Solgar VM 75. 19.7 mg daily average, 27 mg daily max with antioxidant. 30 days later I will test everything again and ferritin. I want to delay phlebotomy until I sort out zinc.

I decided not to use antioxidants on the days I use VM 75. Lots of same ingredients and too much vitamin A and C if taken together.

Revised regimen (I feel like this will be perfect for me):

4000 IU D3 + 100 mg magnesium citrate + 100 mg vitamin K2 daily after breakfast
Solgar Milk Thistle daily after snack 10:30 AM (Possibly for only 1 month)
100 mg magnesium citrate daily after lunch
Solgar VM 75 on tuesday/thursday/saturday after lunch
1000 mcg B12 on monday after lunch
22 mg zinc prolinate on monday/wednesday/friday/sunday after lunch
Solgar Advanced Antioxidant on monday/wednesday/friday/sunday after snack2 16:30 PM
100 mg magnesium citrate daily after dinner

Thanks for your time.

[jimmylegs]

looks good to me! 300mg mag citrate in divided doses should be ok. figure worst case scenario, laxative side effect.
i can't handle 300mg of mag glycinate but it's not the same form at all; with excess mag glycinate (say 360 mg instead of 180 mg) there's no laxative effect and the symptom for me is sluggish muscles.

alternating the antiox and the multivit/min sounds good.

i have never heard of zinc prolinate! do you mean zinc picolinate? if so good - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3630857/ i don't try hard enough to find it and am often stuck with zinc citrate. it has worked for me at least, so i don't beat myself up too much

will be great to see how you fare in the next round after implementing this new routine. fingers crossed you can get ferritin down to 100 at some point!

[Zyklon]

My lovely wife has a ferritin level of 9 mg/mL. Yea out of limit in the opposite direction, I laugh out so loudly Same house diet huh?

She needs D3, magnesium, iron, lowering cholesterol, lowering calcium. Surprisingly her B12 level is 600+, zinc and copper 100-105.

I am glad I have forced her to take D3 in the last month. D3 deficiency is no joke. Her D3 level is 22 mg/dL. She will take 4000 IU daily with magnesium and retest in one month.

Jimmylegs, you are right about zinc.

Wife Results (no auto-immune disease)

Hemoglobin 13.20 g/dL
Serum Ferritin 9 mg/mL (low)
Serum Iron 43 µg/dL (low)

Sodium 136 mmol/L
Potassium 4.33 mmol/L
Phosphorus 3.60 mg/dL

Copper 105 µg/dL
Zinc 100 µg/dL

B12 642 pg/mL

D3 22.60 ng/mL (low)
Calcium 9.90 mg/dL (high)
Magnesium 1.90 mg/dL (low)

CRP 1.51 mg/L (may be better)

Her regimen:

5000 IU D3 + 100 mg magnesium citrate + 100 mg vitamin K2 daily after breakfast
Solgar Advanced Antioxidant + 25mg iron bisglycinate daily after lunch (is this a bad idea? Bad absorption?)
100 mg magnesium citrate daily after dinner

1000 mcg B12 + B Complex 50 once a week

[jimmylegs]

awesome that your learning curve is extending to your loved ones as well! hopefully she doesn't take much 'forcing' however...???!! can still push the zinc a bit higher, but only AFTER iron status is sorted out of course. nice to hear you've got a good form of zinc on hand, too.

[jimmylegs]

always good to see levels and plans!!

that hb level is okay (target 'at least 13' if managing for ms or myasthenia gravis per old klenner protocol) in spite of lower ferritin and iron status.

zinc and copper are by and large not bad, but zinc definitely could stand to go higher in relation to copper. zinc at 115 with copper at remaining at 105 looks like a desirable zinc copper ratio (~1.1)

re d3/mag. one of these days i want to see a study where they do nothing else but increase magnesium intake and serum levels to a significant degree, and then just monitor what happens to d3 status without any particular d3 supplementation. well they do kind of have that study but i want more of them

i hope the magnesium plan/timing you've got in mind for her provides enough mag to 1. deal with a 5000 IU daily dose of d3, 2. meet daily magnesium requirements and 3. increase serum levels. time will tell!

you can expect improvements in magnesium status to help bring elevated CRP into line. i did have to refresh my memory on what was good and what was less so for CRP. i hadn't realized the 'normal' condition is none whatsoever! https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003356.htm

re the antioxidant and iron, i shouldn't think it would be an issue. as you know, the C in the anti-ox will aid iron absorption. i haven't looked into iron bisglycinate before, only having taken pills a long time ago which were constipating, and more recently an herbal iron liquid ('floravit') which was somewhat less so. if iron therapy does slow down her GI tract, then you can throw any leftover mag oxide you might have around, into the daily mix. with 200 mag citrate already going into the system, adding mag oxide should free things up handily.

all in all looks like quite a nice corrective approach. will be interesting to see results from followup testing after she's implemented the above for a while.

[Zyklon]

I "love" pseudo exacerbations. Yesterday pins and needles started in my right arm. Today more right arm, left arm started. Tonight I had some difficulties while I was helping my child with his lego. It scared me and I went to an MRI center. Short result no active areas so no relapse. Detailed results on monday.

Any chance pins and needles is a side effect of increased magnesium intake? Thanks.

Monday I will have a 3 hours international flight. The first time after diagnosis. I guess I will use a mild sedative before flight as a precaution. I got a letter from my neurologist about my condition and medicine.

[jimmylegs]

oh, boy, fun fun fun.
can't think of any reason why this might be a side effect of increasing magnesium, esp with your calcium on the high side too.
at this point i keep coming back to the ferritin. i don't think we've looked much at antioxidants in the form of omega 3 fatty acids so far, have we? another key to managing inflammation.