herbals

[CureOrBust]

whoah, 10g of salvia? I just checked iHerb and their strongest was 1g per tablet. Where / which brand are you using?

Although it also has an "extract" that they say is the effective ingredient.
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.asp ... =1613&at=0

[gibbledygook]

Hi there,

Yes 10g! I had been taking about 5g (ie 3 600mg pills 3 times daily) from herbalextractsplus but hadn't noticed very much, I then doubled this amount to 3pills 6 times daily. I haven't yet had a liver function test to check that this is okay. But the effect on the tingling has been extraordinary. I note that in my Chinese medicine book most herbs are said not to be toxic in doses up to 15g daily.

Here's the link to the topic in the drugs regimen
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-5139.html

[gibbledygook]

I've just realized that I have incorrectly stated that I started the salvia about 4 weeks ago. In fact I only upped the dose on return from Austria,towards the end of August. The improvements have been so sudden that it seems incredible that I haven't been taking the herbs for longer. I have only been taking the increased dose of salvia and scutellaria for about 2 weeks.

I think I shall shortly reduce the amounts taken, not least because it's a pain to take so many pills. I hope that if I reduce to 2 600mg pills 6 times a day which would give me 7.2g of the salvia and scutellaria I will still see good results. Fingers crossed.

[CureOrBust]

I actually just realised I am taking a SMALL amount. I am trying the following suppliment Planetary Herbals, Myelin Sheath Support

Which has the following "Proprietary Blend" in addition to the main ingredients.

European Elderberry, Asian Ginseng Root Extract 8% ginsenosides), Tienchi Ginseng Root, Hawthorn Berry Extract (4:1), Shilajit Mineral Resin Extract (2% fulvic acid), Bromelain, Phellodendron Bark, Gum Guggul Extract (10%), Chebulic Myrobalan Fruit, Amla Fruit Extract (3:1), Boswellia serratta Gum Resin Extract (85% boswella acid), Licorice Root Extract (4:1), Ashwagandha Root Extract (5:1), Turmeric Rhizome Extract 95% curcumin), Chinese Salvia Root, Hericium erinaceus Mycelium, Amla Fruit, Belleric Myrobalan Fruit, Astragalus Root Extract (10:1), Bacopa Extract 85% bacosides), Ginger Root, Black Pepper Fruit, Long Pepper Fruit, Dill Seed, Asafetida and Boron Chelate.

I thought you might be interested in searching the other herbals.

[gibbledygook]

Thanks for this cureo! I certainly shall have a look through pubmed. I reckon herbs are effective but only in largeish quantities and taken with bioperine (black pepper).

Now interesting, very interestingly, I stopped taking the capsaicin 2.75 days ago. I have noticed an INCREASE in night tingling and spasms since then, especially last night after I reduced the salvia and scutellaria from 10.8g to 9g. This could be yesterday's addition of nettle but my hunch is that the capsaicin and the salvia are having a pronounced effect on the blood coagulation/platelet formation and that it is these effects which so drastically reduced the tingling/stiffness etc 2 weeks ago.

Fortunately have just managed to visit the fertility specialist who suspects that my progesterone and other hormone levels are fine and that the generalist doctor wasn't counting the days right. I am therefore straight back on the capsaicin!! I also want to see if the tingling and spasms now disappear. This is a fun experiment.

Here's some stuff on platelets MS:

1: J Neuroinflammation. 2008 Jun 27;5:27. Links
Evidence of platelet activation in multiple sclerosis.Sheremata WA, Jy W, Horstman LL, Ahn YS, Alexander JS, Minagar A.
Multiple Sclerosis Center and Department of Neurology Miller School of Medicine, University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. sheremaw@bellsouth.net

OBJECTIVE: A fatality in one multiple sclerosis (MS) patient due to acute idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP) and a near fatality in another stimulated our interest in platelet function abnormalities in MS. Previously, we presented evidence of platelet activation in a small cohort of treatment-naive MS patients. METHODS: In this report, 92 normal controls and 33 stable, untreated MS patients were studied. Platelet counts, measures of platelet activation [plasma platelet microparticles (PMP), P-selectin expression (CD62p), circulating platelet microaggragtes (PAg)], as well as platelet-associated IgG/IgM, were carried out. In addition, plasma protein S activity was measured. RESULTS: Compared to controls, PMP were significantly elevated in MS (p < 0.001) and CD62p expression was also markedly elevated (p < 0.001). Both are markers of platelet activation. Platelet-associated IgM, but not IgG, was marginally elevated in MS (p = 0.01). Protein S in MS patients did not differ significantly from normal values. CONCLUSION: Platelets are significantly activated in MS patients. The mechanisms underlying this activation and its significance to MS are unknown. Additional study of platelet activation and function in MS patients is warranted.
link

Salvia may counter this PMP elevation as it inhibits platelet aggregation:

1: Am J Chin Med. 2008;36(2):313-28. Links
Interaction of salvianolic acids and notoginsengnosides in inhibition of ADP-induced platelet aggregation.Yao Y, Wu WY, Liu AH, Deng SS, Bi KS, Liu X, Guo DA.
Shanghai Research Center for Modernization of Traditional Chinese Medicine, Shanghai Institute of Materia Medica, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Shanghai, China.

Salvia miltiorrhiza and Panax notoginseng were both considered to be beneficial to cardiovascular diseases in traditional Chinese medicine and often used in combination. To examine the possible interaction between them, the effects of the active fractions of these two herbs, salvianolic acids (SA) and notoginsengnosides (NG), on platelet aggregation were checked respectively or in combination in vitro and in vivo. Both the platelet aggregation of platelet rich plasma (PRP) and washed platelet after ADP induction were checked. In vitro study showed that both SA and NG had an inhibitory effect on platelet aggregation. However, there is no synergistic effect of the combination of SA and NG in vitro. In vivo study showed that i.g. 550 mg/kg/day SA or NG for 5 days could significantly inhibit ADP-induced platelet aggregation of PRP. Moreover, combination of SA and NG at a ratio of 5:1 had a synergistic effect on platelet aggregation of PRP. The mechanism for the synergism of SA and NG in vivo was not clear. High performance liquid chromatography analysis of the plasma of rats received SA, NG or combination of SA and NG showed that co-administration of NG caused change in the plasma distribution profile of SA. The influence of combination on the absorption and/or metabolism of SA may be one of the reasons for the synergism of SA and NG in vivo.
link

from wikipedia today 10/9/08:

Platelets, or thrombocytes, are the cells circulating in the blood of mammals that are involved in hemostasis leading to the formation of blood clots. Like red blood cells, platelets have no nucleus.

(Primary hemostasis is the immediate response to injury, which involves platelets. Secondary hemostasis is the next response to injury, which involves other components of the clotting system.)

If the number of platelets is too low, that can cause bleeding. If the numbers of platelets is too high, that can cause blood clots (thrombosis) which block blood vessels, and cause strokes and heart attacks. An abnormality or disease of the platelets is called a thrombocytopathy[1] which could be either a low number (thrombocytopenia), a decrease in function (thrombasthenia) or an increase in number (thrombocytosis).
Platelets are produced in blood cell formation (thrombopoiesis) by budding off from megakaryocytes. This process is regulated by thrombopoietin, a hormone usually produce by liver and kidney. Each megakaryocyte produces between 5,000 and 10,000 platelets.

Platelets circulate for approximately one week, and are then destroyed by the spleen and by Kupffer cells in the liver.

Functions of Platelets can be generalised into a number of categories:

Adhesion
Aggregation
Clot retraction
Pro-coagulation
Cytokine signalling
Phagocytosis[2]

[edit] Activation
The inner surface of blood vessels is lined with a thin layer of endothelial cells. Under the endothelial layer is a layer of collagen. When the endothelial layer is injured, the collagen is exposed.

When the platelets contact collagen, they are activated. They are also activated by thrombin (primarily through PAR-1), ADP receptors (P2Y1 and P2Y12) expressed on platelets. They can also be activated by a negatively charged surface, such as glass.

Once activated, they release coagulation factors and platelet activating factors. These substances are normally stored in one of two cytoplasmic granules:

either the dense granules (containing ADP or ATP, calcium and serotonin)
or the α-granules (containing platelet factor 4, PDGF, fibronectin, B-thromboglobulin, vWF, fibrinogen, and coagulation factors V and XIII).
Platelet activation further results in the scramblase-mediated transport of negatively charged phospholipids to the platelet surface. These phospholipids provide a catalytic surface (with the charge provided by phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylethanolamine) for the tenase and prothrombinase complexes.

Platelet aggregation is the clumping of platelets together, using fibrin as the connecting agent. Activated platelets have fibrin receptors on their surfaces. Platelet adhesion is the process of platelets sticking to the damaged inner surface of the vessel wall. Adhesion can occur because collagen in the vessel wall is exposed when the endothelial surface lining the vessel is breached, and activated platelets have collagen receptors on their surfaces. Aggregation and adhesion act together to form the platelet plug. The high concentration of myosin and actin filaments in platelets are stimulated to contract during aggregation, further reinforcing the plug.

The most abundant platelet aggregation receptor is glycoprotein (GP) IIb/IIIa; this is a calcium-dependent receptor for fibrinogen, fibronectin, vitronectin, thrombospondin and von Willebrand factor (vWF). Other receptors include GPIb-V-IX complex (vWF) and GPVI (collagen).

Platelet aggregation is stimulated by ADP, thromboxane and α2 receptor-activation, but inhibited by other inflammatory products like PGI2 and PGD2.


[edit] Cytokine signalling
Besides being the chief cellular effector of hemostasis, platelets are rapidly deployed to sites of injury or infection and potentially modulate inflammatory processes by interacting with leukocytes and by secreting cytokines, chemokines and other inflammatory mediators[3] [4] [5] [6].

It also secretes e.g. platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF).

capsaicin inhibits platelet aggregation:

1: Eur J Pharmacol. 1991 Sep 4;202(1):129-31. Links
Inhibition of platelet aggregation by capsaicin. An effect unrelated to actions on sensory afferent neurons.Hogaboam CM, Wallace JL.
Faculty of Medicine, University of Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

The effects of capsaicin on the ability of platelets to aggregate in response to thrombin, platelet-activating factor or calcium ionophore (A23187) were examined. At concentrations previously shown to activate sensory afferent neurons, capsaicin markedly inhibited the responsiveness of platelets to the three agonists. The effects of capsaicin on platelet aggregation were reversible, and could be observed if capsaicin was added after platelets had begun to aggregate in response to the agonist. Capsaicin did not affect the shape change which occurs in response to the agonists, a process which is calcium-independent. These results demonstrate that capsaicin, at concentrations which are frequently used to 'selectively' activate sensory afferent neurons, is also capable of affecting the function of the platelet. Such non-specific effects of capsaicin must be considered when this substance is used as a pharmacological probe of sensory afferent nerve function.

link

[gibbledygook]

Salvia inhibits endothelin 1 which is massively overexpressed in MS patients:

1: J Neuroophthalmol. 2001 Mar;21(1):37-8. Links
Increased endothelin-1 plasma levels in patients with multiple sclerosis.Haufschild T, Shaw SG, Kesselring J, Flammer J.
University Eye Clinic, Basel, Switzerland.

OBJECTIVE: We tested the hypothesis that the plasma level of endothelin-1 (ET-1) is increased in patients with multiple sclerosis (MS). The peptide ET-1 is one of the most potent known vasoconstrictors. An increased level of endothelin could explain some of the vascular symptoms of these patients. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A specific radioimmunoassay was used to determine ET-1 plasma levels. Twenty patients with MS were compared to 20 age- and sex-pair-matched healthy subjects. RESULTS: The plasma ET-1 levels were, on average, 224% higher in the patients with MS than in the controls (p < 0.005). The mean ET-1 levels (mean +/- standard deviation [SD]) were 3.5 +/- 0.83 pg/mL (min 2.13, max 5.37 pg/mL) in patients with MS and 1.56 +/- 0.3 pg/mL (min 0.9, max 2.13 pg/mL) in healthy volunteers. Neither the different forms nor stages of MS had an influence on the results. The ET-1 level was also not correlated with the duration of the disease. CONCLUSIONS: The plasma ET-1 level is markedly and significantly increased in patients with MS. Neither the cause of such an increase nor the pathogenetic role is known.

PMID: 11315981 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

link

1: Biochim Biophys Acta. 2006 Jan;1760(1):1-9. Epub 2005 Oct 3. Links
Cryptotanshinone inhibits endothelin-1 expression and stimulates nitric oxide production in human vascular endothelial cells.Zhou Z, Wang SQ, Liu Y, Miao AD.
Laboratory of Biotechnology, Beijing Institute of Radiation Medicine, Taiping road 27#, Haidian district, Beijing 100850, PR China.

The Chinese herb Salvia miltiorrhiza (SM) has been found to have beneficial effects on the circulatory system. In the present study, we investigated the effects of cryptotanshinone (derived from SM) on endothelin-1 (ET-1) expression in human umbilical vein endothelial cells (HUVECs). The effect of cryptotanshinone on nitric oxide (NO) in HUVECs was also examined. We found that cryptotanshinone inhibited basal and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) stimulated ET-1 secretion in a concentration-dependent manner. Cryptotanshinone also induced a concentration-dependent decrease in ET-1 mRNA expression. Cryptotanshinone increased basal and TNF-alpha-attenuated NO production in a dose-dependent fashion. Cryptotanshinone induced a concentration-dependent increase in endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS) expression without significantly changing neuronal nitric oxide synthase (nNOS) expression in HUVECs in the presence or absence of TNF-alpha. NOS activities in the HUVECs were also induced by cryptotanshinone. Furthermore, decreased ET-1 expression in response to cryptotanshinone was not antagonized by the NOS inhibitor l-NAME. A gel shift assay further showed that TNF-alpha-induced Nuclear Factor-kappaB (NF-kappaB) activity was significantly reduced by cryptotanshinone. These data suggest that cryptotanshinone inhibits ET-1 production, at least in part, through a mechanism that involves NF-kappaB but not NO production.

PMID: 16289876 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

I take 10.8g daily.

[gibbledygook]

Recently I reduced the levels of salvia to 5.4g daily but after about 3 days of this I noticed a return of the tingling and stiffness. I think that one needs more than just 5.4g of salvia a day. I am now increasing to between 7.2g to 9g a day. I weigh about 57kg. amazing. I think salvia may be really effective in treating MS.

Cureo, I like the look of all those herbs in your supplement. How much are you taking?

[Artifishual]

Marijuana
This illegal drug seems to have very beneficial effects for RLS. There are no known medical studies on this drug for RLS as the drug is not available even for medical research. There have been many anecdotal reports on the effectiveness of this drug for RLS.

According to the reports from patients who have used marijuana, it often takes only a very small amount of the drug (often as little as 2 inhalations of a marijuana cigarette) to relieve RLS symptoms. The onset of action of this drug can be amazingly fast with complete symptom relief occurring within 2-3 minutes.

This drug should be used with caution as the long term effects of smoking marijuana are not fully known and, of course, since the drug is illegal, legal problems may occur if the user is caught by police.

Currently there is a drug called Marinol (dronabinol) that is FDA approved for the treatment of anorexia associated with weight loss in patients with AIDS and nausea and vomiting associated with cancer chemotherapy in patients who have failed to respond adequately to conventional anti-nausea treatments. This drug contains delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta-9-THC) which is the active ingredient of marijuana.

The effect of taking oral Marinol capsules is quite different from smoking marijuana. After oral administration, Marinol has an onset of action of approximately 0.5 to 1 hours and peak effect at 2 to 4 hours with a duration of action for psychoactive effects of 4 to 6 hours and does not cause the so called "high feeling". Marijuana, when smoked will onset within seconds to a few minutes with very high peak blood levels compared to the lower steady levels that onset slowly with Marinol.

Patients find that Marinol does not work as dramatically as smoking marijuana. Based on anecdotal clinical patient reports it appears that a minority of RLS sufferers may experience a modest benefit for their RLS symptoms with Marinol. This drug comes in 2.5, 5 and 10 mg tablets that can be taken up to 2-3 times per day with a maximum daily dose of 20 mg.


I am at my wits end here!! I can't take the RLS anymore. If anyone has any feedback on this please share with me. My Mirapex has seemed to have stopped working for me and I am looking for alternative treatments (mj) being one of them. Thanks arti

[CureOrBust]

I only have VERY mild RLS. So am no expert by any stretch. Have you tried magnesium citrate? I noticed Mag has possibly some effects for me.

This site looks interesting, but does not look like it would have anything you dont already know.
http://www.iguard.org/conditions/RESTLE ... DROME.html

[robbie]

very beneficial effects for RLS.

it helps arti.

[Artifishual]

I only have VERY mild RLS. So am no expert by any stretch. Have you tried magnesium citrate? I noticed Mag has possibly some effects for me.

This site looks interesting, but does not look like it would have anything you dont already know.
http://www.iguard.org/conditions/RESTLE ... DROME.html

Thanks, and I take "natural calm" about a tablespoon daily, plus b-12 and some other stuff too.

very beneficial effects for RLS.

it helps arti.

Hi robbie, do you have RLS? just how bad is your? and how well does it work? mj , that is. thanks arti

[robbie]

Hi robbie, do you have RLS? just how bad is your? and how well does it work? mj , that is. thanks arti

I’m not sure about RLS but my legs constantly spasm, a little pot and the spasms stop.

[gibbledygook]

I have smoked mj for a long time but have found it surprisingly unhelpful for MS. In fact it makes my pain worse, has no effect on my spasms and makes my walking worse. I found alcohol helpful in stopping spasms but had to drink about half a bottle to knock them on the head. Since starting high doses of salvia miltiorrhiza and curcumin the spasms seem to have really quietened down.

[Artifishual]

I'm a big drinker, but have noticed that alcohol makes shit worse!!!
Looking for an alternative to the booze!!!!!!

[gibbledygook]

Just shows how different this damned disease affects us all. Lots of people get help from the MJ. Wish I could. I still smoke it as it makes television hilarious and one can laugh instead of cry at all the shite that goes around.
I would entirely recommend curcumin and salvia as well as they have both helped enormously and they are all natural and both are used in chinese medicine a lot. I recently upped my dose of salvia to 14grams a day and I've really noticed an improvement in my walking, my spasms, the spasticity, the bladder, the bowel, the lot. I experiment a lot with natural drugs and update my regimen section with the results. I try to have regular kidney and liver function tests and so far have had nothing untoward occur in these organs on the natural products.
Good luck with the MJ. I recommend the ventilator method of inhaling the THC. My ventilator is called by these dudes:
http://www.storz-bickel.com/vaporizer/s ... turer.html