herbals

[ursula]

"...the consumption of (−)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG), the major polyphenolic compound found in green tea, has been associated with various neurological benefits including cognitive improvement..."

Hi DIM,

I take part in an EGCG trial -
I´m sorry but I haven´t noticed this effect so far...LOL
I´m still as dumb as I was before...!

[/b]

[Wonderfulworld]

Hi GG
I tried horsechestnut. Taking tincture of 20 drops per day so not sure of mg dose I'm getting. But very interestingly my tingling and spasms in right side have increased, so I'm going to stop it again for a week or so to see if it's related.
Any further thoughts on it from you?

[gibbledygook]

Mmm. How annoying. I haven't yet managed to reintroduce any horsechestnut as I've been playing around with the ginkgo/salvia doses. I now seem to be responding very nicely to MUCH, MUCH lower doses of ginkgo and salvia. Today I am taking only 2 x 120mg ginkgo and 3 x 1020mg salvia, yesterday I took 3 x 120mg ginkgo and 3 x 1020g salvia and my legs felt much much better than they have in a while. I think I was massively overdosing on these vasodilators! Consequently my introduction of horsechestnut a few weeks ago just clouded the picture. I think that one must take vasodilators before adding horsechestnut as the latter may just tighten up the venous junctions even more and that the veins/capillaries need to relax and dilate under salvia and ginkgo FIRST. This is of course a bit of guesswork. I'm convinced that salvia and ginkgo are useful in MS. Yesterday I walked briskly (it was freezing) circa 500meters without cane. It was much better than I had anticipated as I still (for the 2nd week running) have a fluey cold with strange temperature increases and decreases. I think that the vasodilator doses which I am now on are good maintenance doses and so will reintroduce horsechestnut/butcher's broom shortly. It may be that starting out with such high doses of ginkgo and salvia have substantially altered my vasculature and now I need much less. I certainly didn't notice anything from the salvia until I upped the dose. Then, wow, there was no pain at night! However staying on the high dose of salvia/ginkgo was bad and I started having much greater difficulty walking. But now I'm feeling much better, in my legs, at any rate. Sorry not to have discussed the horsechestnut but I've had to leave it to the side for the time being.

[Wonderfulworld]

That's interesting GG. Maybe you're right that you have to start by dilating, then find maintenance dose.

I haven't got ginkgo yet because it's banned in Ireland, but I will get it in UK soon. I was using high dose niacin for the dilation effect and I do feel good when I take that, more relaxed in my body and less twitchiness. But horsechestnut seemed to make a lot of pain and twitching come back - I've had a few bad nights sleep which is unusual on the amitriptyline.

I'm going to give it about 3 weeks before I try the horsechestnut again. Do you ever feel like a guinea pig?

[gibbledygook]

I can't believe they have banned ginkgo in Ireland. I guess you have big pharma lobbying very effectively. You could try salvia from iherb.


I have resumed taking horsechestnut and butcher's broom and once again I note that it reduces the tingling compared with salvia alone. I now take either one horsechestnut of 600mg or one 500mg butcher's broom with my 1020mg of salvia. I can almost feel the veins/capillaries closing up! I would counsel using horsechestnut or butcher's broom but only WITH a vasodilator.

[gibbledygook]

Well, yesterday was my fifth day on horsechestnut and butcher's broom and whilst the tingling was reduced the stiffness was increased like when I take alpha lipoic. However last night I had the worst spasms for a while and had to take a zanaflex and a mouthful of curcumin to get to sleep. So now I'm back to not really know about the horsechestnut and butcher's broom. Maybe only the tiniest quantities are necessary. Today I shall get back to the joys of salvia alone and maybe just one 600mg horsechestnut.

This morning after my go on the power plate machine which vigorously shakes one for a minute, I had zero post power plate tingles. This is very unusual. Yet my leg was rather stiff this morning.

I wonder if, now I'm on much lower doses of salvia/ginkgo, I should reduce the horsechestnut to an equivalently low dose...Mmm.

Am now interested in rhubarb root again as per the next entry. I've seen before that rhubarb reduces vascular endothelial growth factor and this factor enhances permeability of the blood vessels.

[gibbledygook]

Anyone tried rhubarb? I think I have some somewhere so will try as soon as possible.

1: Zhongguo Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi. 2006 Feb;26(2):152-6.Links
[Research on acting mechanism of rhubarb on aquaporin-4 in rats with blood-brain barrier injury after acute cerebral hemorrhage][Article in Chinese]

Tang YP, Cai DF, Liu J.
Zhongshan Hospital Affliated to Shanghai Medical College, Fudan University 200032.

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the mechanism of rhubarb in regulating aquaporin-4 in rats with blood-brain barrier damage after acute cerebral hemorrhage (CH). METHODS: CH model was induced by stereospecific injection of auto-blood into caudate nucleus of rats, and the brain water content and neurological defect were detected to evaluate cerebral edema and neurological defect level. Also, the blood-brain barrier damage was observed by Evan's blue staining; the changes of blood-brain barrier tight junction and astrocyte end feet at different time points were observed with electron microscope; and the AQP-4 mRNA and protein expression were measured with RT-PCR and Western blot. RESULTS: Rhubarb showed effects in reducing cerebral edema. Evan's blue result indicated the blood-brain barrier was evidently damaged at the 12th hour after CH, with blood-brain barrier tight junction damaged and astrocyte end feet process swelled obviously, but these changes could be relieved by rhubarb. The AQP-4 mRNA and protein expression in rats increased significantly 24 hrs after modeling (P < 0.05) and reached the peak value at 72 hrs, and decreased gradually after then. Rhubarb also showed inhibiting transcription and translation of AQP-4 gene. CONCLUSION: Rhubarb could alleviate cerebral edema via reducing blood-brain barrier tight junction damage and astrocyte end feet process swelling, which might be realized by the inhibition on transcription and translation of AQP-4 gene.

PMID: 16548359 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Related Articles[Effect of local mild hypothermia on expression of aquaporin-4 following intracerebral hemorrhage in rats] [Zhonghua Yi Xue Za Zhi. 2006] Experimental intracerebral hemorrhage: relationship between brain edema, blood flow, and blood-brain barrier permeability in rats. [J Neurosurg. 1994] Dexamethasone treatment modulates aquaporin-4 expression after intracerebral hemorrhage in rats. [Neurosci Lett. 2007] ReviewBlood-brain barrier breakdown in septic encephalopathy and brain tumours. [J Anat. 2002] Review[Summarization of the clinical and laboratory study on the rhubarb in treating chronic renal failure] [Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi. 2002] » See Reviews... | » See All...

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Aquaporin 4 is found in the basolateral cell membrane of principal collecting duct cells and provide a pathway for water to exit these cells.[1]

AQP4 is constitutively expressed.

AQP4 is expressed in astrocytes and is upregulated by direct insult to the central nervous system.[2]

It seems that AQP4 auto-antibodies are a feature of neuromyelitis optica

1: Clin Neurol Neurosurg. 2008 Nov;110(9):913-8. Epub 2008 Aug 13. Links
Disseminated encephalomyelitis in adults.Brinar VV, Poser CM.
Department of Neurology, Reffered Center for Demyelinating Diseases of Central Nervous System, Ministry of Health, School of Medicine, University Hospital Center Zagreb, Zagreb, Croatia. vesna.brinar@zg.t-com.hr

Disseminated encephalomyelitis (DEM) is an inflammatory demyelinating disease that is common in children, but also appears in adults. It is often misdiagnosed as multiple sclerosis (MS) from which it differs in its clinical presentation, course of disease and prognosis. Some aspects of DEM overlap with neuromyelitis optica (NMO), another demyelination disease of CNS that was for a long time regarded as part of the MS spectrum, until discovery of the aquaporin-4 antibodies, claimed to be specific for NMO. The clinical symptoms of both may be similar, and their clinical courses may be monophasic or multiphasic, mild but also very aggressive. Neuroimaging in both diseases is characterized by large demyelinating lesions in the spinal cord extending over several segments, and/or in the brain often involving the locations of astrocytes water channels. Our cases of monophasic, multiphasic and recurrent DEM, invoking possible causative triggers, point to the conclusion that DEM has to be regarded as a separate disease; its similarities with NMO raise the expectations that other specific autoantibodies will be identified to explain DEM and its variations.

PMID: 18703274 [PubMed - in

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[gibbledygook]

Furthermore rhubarb reduces MMP9 and artherosclerotic plaques:

1: Tohoku J Exp Med. 2008 May;215(1):61-9. Links
Emodin promotes atherosclerotic plaque stability in fat-fed apolipoprotein E-deficient mice.Zhou M, Xu H, Pan L, Wen J, Guo Y, Chen K.
China Academy of Chinese Medical Sciences, Beijing, China.

Increasing evidence indicated that plaque stabilization is attributed to the composition of the atherosclerotic plaque, and inflammation plays an important role in the formation and progress of vulnerable atherosclerotic plaque (VAP), which is prone to rupture. Emodin, an important component of traditional Chinese herb rhubarb, has obvious anti-inflammatory effect, although its effect on atherosclerotic plaque stabilization is unknown. Apolipoprotein E (ApoE) is an important component of plasma lipoprotein with anti-atherosclerosis function, and the plaque in the aorta of ApoE-deficient mice has been demonstrated with characteristics of VAP. Therefore, this study was designed to determine whether emodin can stabilize the VAP in the ApoE-deficient mice and explain the possible mechanism. After fat-fed for 13 weeks, mice were randomized into three groups (11 animals/group) and intragastrically administrated with emodin, simvastatin or distilled water for 13 weeks, respectively. The plaque stability was evaluated by the morphology and composition of atherosclerotic plaques. Additionally, the expression of peroxisomal proliferator-activated receptor-gamma (PPAR-gamma), granulocyte-macrophage colony-stimulating factor (GM-CSF), and matrix metalloproteinase 9 (MMP-9) in plaques was determined by the immunohistochemistry method. We showed that emodin could decrease the lipid core area and the ratio of lipid to collagen content in plaques. In addition, emodin significantly inhibited the expression of GM-CSF and MMP-9, whereas it induced the expression of PPAR-gamma in plaques. In conclusion, these results suggest that emodin can stabilize the VAP in the aortic root of ApoE-knockout mice, which is probably due to its anti-inflammatory effect.

PMID: 18509236 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Related ArticlesRosiglitazone promotes atherosclerotic plaque stability in fat-fed ApoE-knockout mice. [Eur J Pharmacol. 2008] [Effects of some active ingredients of Chinese drugs for activating blood circulation and detoxicating on blood lipids and atherosclerotic plaque inflammatory reaction in ApoE-gene knockout mice] [Zhongguo Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi. 2008] GM-CSF deficiency reduces macrophage PPAR-gamma expression and aggravates atherosclerosis in ApoE-deficient mice. [Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2006] ReviewInflammation and atherosclerosis: novel insights into plaque formation and destabilization. [Stroke. 2006] ReviewAtherosclerosis and vascular calcification in uraemia - a new experimental model. [Prilozi. 2007] » See Reviews... | » See All... Patient Drug Information
Lovastatin (Altoprev®, Mevacor®, Advicor® (as a combination product containing Niacin and Lovastatin)) Pending revision, the material in this section should be considered in light of more recently available information in the MedWatch notification at the beginning of this monograph. » read more ... Simvastatin (Zocor®, Simcor® (as a combination product containing Niacin and Simvastatin), Vytorin® (as a combination product containing Ezetimibe and Simvastatin)) Pending revision, the material in this section should be considered in light of more recently available information in the MedWatch notification at the beginning of this monograph. » read more ...

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now reducing MMPs might be good for protecting the blood brain barrier (theory behind efficacity of minocycline is its inhibition of MMP9):

1: Diabetologia. 2007 Jan;50(1):202-11. Epub 2006 Dec 2. Links
Increased blood-brain barrier permeability and altered tight junctions in experimental diabetes in the rat: contribution of hyperglycaemia and matrix metalloproteinases.Hawkins BT, Lundeen TF, Norwood KM, Brooks HL, Egleton RD.
Department of Medical Pharmacology, The University of Arizona College of Medicine, 1501 N. Campbell Ave., P.O. Box 245050, Tucson, AZ 85724-5050, USA.

AIMS/HYPOTHESIS: Although diabetes mellitus is associated with peripheral microvascular complications and increased risk of neurological events, the mechanisms by which diabetes disrupts the blood-brain barrier (BBB) are not known. Matrix metalloproteinase (MMP) activity is increased in diabetic patients, is associated with degradation of tight junction proteins, and is a known mediator of BBB compromise. We hypothesise that diabetes leads to compromise of BBB tight junctions via stimulation of MMP activity. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Diabetes was induced in the rat with streptozotocin. At 14 days after injection, BBB function was assessed by in situ brain perfusion. Tight junction proteins were assessed by immunoblot and immunofluorescence. Plasma MMP activity was quantified by fluorometric gelatinase assay and gel zymography. RESULTS: In streptozotocin-treated animals, permeability to [(14)C]sucrose increased concurrently with decreased production of BBB tight junction proteins occludin (also known as OCLN) and zona occludens 1 (ZO-1, also known as tight junction protein 1 or TJP1). Insulin treatment, begun on day 7, normalised blood glucose levels and attenuated BBB hyperpermeability to [(14)C]sucrose. Neither acute hyperglycaemia in naive animals nor acute normalisation of blood glucose in streptozotocin-treated animals altered BBB permeability to [(14)C]sucrose. Plasma MMP activity was increased in streptozotocin-treated animals. CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION: These data indicate that diabetes increases BBB permeability via a loss of tight junction proteins, and that increased BBB permeability in diabetes does not result from hyperglycaemia alone. Increased plasma MMP activity is implicated in degradation of BBB tight junction proteins and increased BBB permeability in diabetes. Peripheral MMP activity may present a novel target for protection of the BBB and prevention of neurological complications in diabetes.

PMID: 17143608 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Related ArticlesMatrix metalloproteinase-mediated disruption of tight junction proteins in cerebral vessels is reversed by synthetic matrix metalloproteinase inhibitor in focal ischemia in rat. [J Cereb Blood Flow Metab. 2007] Regulation of bovine brain microvascular endothelial tight junction assembly and barrier function by laminar shear stress. [Am J Physiol Heart Circ Physiol. 2007] Peripheral thermal injury causes blood-brain barrier dysfunction and matrix metalloproteinase (MMP) expression in rat. [Brain Res. 2007] ReviewRegulation of tight junctions and loss of barrier function in pathophysiology. [Int J Biochem Cell Biol. 2004] ReviewThe blood-brain barrier/neurovascular unit in health and disease. [Pharmacol Rev. 2005] » See Reviews... | » See All... Patient Drug Information
Insulin Injection (Humulin R®, Humulin N®, Humulin 70/30®, ...) Insulin injection is used to control blood sugar in people who have type 1 diabetes (condition in which the body does not make insulin and therefore cannot control the amount of sugar in the blood) or in people who have ... » read more ... Streptozocin (Zanosar®) Your doctor has ordered the drug streptozocin to help treat your illness. The drug is given by injection into a vein. » read more ...

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[gibbledygook]

Much like alpha lipoic in its inhibition of vcam and icam:

1: Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi. 2008 Mar;33(6):672-5.Links
[Protective mechanism on the vascular pathological process in diabetes mellitus rats by Rheum officeinale][Article in Chinese]


Tian FS, Li ZB, Wang YS, Su XH, Li WD, Wang XY.
Endocrinology Department, CangZhou Affiliated hospital of integrated TCM-WM, Hebei Medical University, Cangzhou 061001, China. cztianfsh@sian.com

OBJECTIVE: To explore the protective mechanism of officeihale on the vascular pathological process in diabetes mellitus (DM) rats. METHOD: After the DM rat model was established, 24 DM rats were randomly divided into model group (12 DM rats) and Rheum officeinale group (12 DM rats). Rheum officeinale was orally given in 10 g kg(-1) per day, and the other two groups were given equal pure water. 8 weeks later, blood samples were collected to determine the level of nitric oxide (NO) and endothelin-1 (ET-1). Thoracic aortic rings was prepared to observe the inhibiting effect of Ach with different concentration on contraction caused by NE. Another part of aorta was made to observe the expression of ICAM-1 and VCAM-1 by method of SP immunohistochemistry staining, RESULT: Rheum officeinale group obviously decreased the level of ET-1 and increased the NO compared with model group (P <0.05). The expression of ICAM-1 and VCAM-1 could be obviously inhibited in Rheum officeinale group compared with model group. (P <0.05). CONCLUSION: Rheum officeinale could decrease the level of ET-1 with increased the NO in diabetes rats, and inhibit the expression of ICAM-1 and VCAM-1, which may be mechanisms of protecting the endothelium of vessel in diabetes rats.

PMID: 18590198 [PubMed - in process]

Related ArticlesEffect of endothelin dual receptor antagonist on VEGF levels in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rat retina. [Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2006] Protective effect of Weikang decoction and partial ingredients on model rat with gastric mucosa ulcer. [World J Gastroenterol. 2005] An endothelin type A receptor antagonist reverses upregulated VEGF and ICAM-1 levels in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rat retina. [Curr Eye Res. 2006] [Effects of valsartan, mycophenolate mofetil and their combined application on TRAIL and nuclear factor-kappaB expression in the kidneys of diabetic rats] [Zhonghua Yi Xue Za Zhi. 2008] Changes of macrovascular endothelial ultrastructure and gene expression of endothelial nitric oxide synthase in diabetic rats. [Chin Med J (Engl). 2004] » See All...

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[CureOrBust]

Is there a "traditional Chinese herb rhubarb" (as stated in the first batch of quotes)? or are we talking about the plain old vegetable?

[gibbledygook]

I believe that it is rhubarb root as in from wikipedia:

Rheum officinale is a rhubarb from the family Polygonaceae originating in Asia.
The root and stem of R. officinale are used to treat constipation, as well as to aid in the dissolution of blood clots and pus eruptions. Is used in traditional Chinese medicine, where it is called yào yòng dà huáng (药用大黄), and is also a component in the North American herbal remedy called Essiac tea.

In modern medicine, R. officinale has been found to be useful in treatment of Hepatitis B.

It is from the same plant genus as the pink stem which is used in cooking.

The roots have been used as an aggressive laxative for over 5,000 years.[14] The roots and stems are rich in anthraquinones, such as emodin and rhein. These substances are cathartic and laxative, which explains the sporadic use of rhubarb as a slimming agent.

[gibbledygook]

more vasculature related research:

1: Acta Neurol Scand. 2006 Dec;114(6):374-7. Links
Angiotensin-converting enzyme I/D gene polymorphism and risk of multiple sclerosis.Lovrecić L, Ristić S, Starcević-Cizmarević N, Jazbec SS, Sepcić J, Kapović M, Peterlin B.
Department of Medical Genetics, UMC, Ljubljana, Slovenia.

OBJECTIVES: Angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) activity is increased in blood and cerebrospinal fluid of patients with multiple sclerosis (MS). In addition, in experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE), an animal model of MS, the blockade of ACE suppresses the disease itself. To analyze the genetic association of the ACE gene with MS, we examined ACE gene insertion/deletion (I/D) polymorphism in MS patients. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A total of 313 MS patients from Slovenia and Croatia and 376 healthy controls were genotyped by polymerase chain reaction method. RESULTS: We found statistically significant differences in the distribution of ACE I/D allele frequencies (P < 0.01) and genotypes (P < 0.04) in male patients. ACE DD genotype was associated with MS in men at an odds ratio of 1.86 (95% CI 1.09-3.19, P = 0.02). CONCLUSIONS: DD genotype of ACE gene might contribute to a higher risk of developing MS in men.

PMID: 17083336 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Guilty as charged:

1: Endothelium. 2008 Sep-Oct;15(5):239-45.
Effect of nicotine and nicotine metabolites on angiotensin-converting enzyme in human endothelial cells.Ljungberg LU, Persson K.
Division of Drug Research/Pharmacology, Department of Medical and Health Sciences, Faculty of Health Sciences, Linköping University, Linköping, Sweden.

Nicotine has been shown to induce endothelial dysfunction, which is an early marker of atherosclerosis. Nicotine undergoes extensive metabolism in the liver, forming a number of major and minor metabolites. There are very limited data on the effect of nicotine metabolites on the cardiovascular system. This study investigates the effects of nicotine and the nicotine metabolites, cotinine, cotinine-N-oxide, nicotine-1'-N-oxide, norcotinine, trans-3'-hydroxycotinine, on angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) in human endothelial cells. Cultured endothelial cells obtained from human umbilical cord vein (HUVECs) were stimulated with nicotine or nicotine metabolites in concentrations similar to those observed in plasma during smoking. ACE activity and expression were analyzed using commercial kits. The results showed that nicotine and nicotine metabolites can increase both activity and expression of ACE. However, a marked individual variation in the response to the drugs was observed. This variation was not associated with the ACE insertion/deletion polymorphism. Tobacco contains numerous chemical compounds, and the underlying cause for development of atherosclerosis in smokers is probably multifactorial. The results from this study could explain one cellular mechanism by which smoking exerts negative effect on the vascular system.

PMID: 19065315 [PubMed - in process]

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To the rescue:

1: Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi. 2004 Apr;29(4):359-62.Links
[Screening of angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors from Salvia miltiorrhizae][Article in Chinese]


Gao XP, Xu DY, Deng YL, Zhang Y.
Institute of Materia Medica, Chengdu DIAO Group, Chengdu 610041, China. gxplww@hotmail.com

OBJECTIVE: To screen angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitor (ACEI) from traditional Chinese medicine, Salvia miltiorrhiza. METHOD: Hydrophilic and lipophilic fractions of S. miltiorrhiza were isolated, and their effective components were screened by a fluorimetric assay for inhibition of angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE). RESULT: Water-soluble fractions, total salvianolic acids and salvianolic acid B markedly decreased ACE activity of rabbit lung tissue. Their IC50 value were (2.45 +/- 0.07), (0.24 +/- 0.02), (0.02 +/- 0.01) g x L(-1) respectively. Lipophilic components or phenanthraquinones including tanshinone I and II showed no changes on the activity of ACE. CONCLUSION: S. miltiorrhiza inhibits angiotensin converting enzyme and its active components are in aqueous extract, in which the main were salvianolic acids including salvianolic acids B.

PMID: 15706878 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Related Articles[Determination of salvianolic acid B in the radix of Salvia miltiorrhiza Bge. by HPLC] [Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi. 2001] Inhibition of angiotensin converting enzyme by lithospermic acid B isolated from Radix Salviae miltiorrhiza Bunge. [Phytother Res. 2003] HPLC method for comparative study on tissue distribution in rat after oral administration of salvianolic acid B and phenolic acids from Salvia miltiorrhiza. [Biomed Chromatogr. 2007] Review[Advances in study of the pharmacological effects of danshen on hemorheology] [Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi. 2005] ReviewAmeliorating effects of compounds derived from Salvia miltiorrhiza root extract on microcirculatory disturbance and target organ injury by ischemia and reperfusion. [Pharmacol Ther. 2008] » See Reviews... | » See All...

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[Wonderfulworld]

I normally never take echinacea because I don't want to boost my immune system towards the poor ol myelin. But last blood tests showed my white blood cells are below average and I have had 5 colds/viruses and a chest infection that needed 2 courses of antibiotics since October. I'm sick of being sick!
Recently I had a migraine that lasted 8 days and now I seem to be starting yet another chest infection.
I'm at my wits end and I seem to have been struggling from one sickness to the next. Taking a very good iron free multivit, high dose vit c, and recently added zinc/cal/mag to my vit d regime, as well as acidophilus, and milk thistle, omega 3's and evening primrose oil.
I am going to request another set of blood tests in early new year.

In the meantime how foolish would it be to take 2 - 3 days of echinacea? - just to boost myself enough to shake the current virus off?

[Loobie]

I don't think it would be foolish at all. Are you pretty sure it will give you some negative results? Unless I was sure it would kick my MS up, I would take it since it sounds like your QOL sucks right now. That's a lot of viral infections in a short period of time, even thougt they're just colds. I say this having never taken Echinacea, so I just am responding saying if I was you, I'd get myself well. I hate being sick now that I don't feel good just as a baseline most of the time anyway.

[jimmylegs]

ww, i have read, without investigating thoroughly any time recently, that echinacea boosts natural killers, and that natural killer cells are low in ms patients experiencing relapse. that said, i have a blend called "immu-9" including echinacea, which i can't say did me much good - i don't think i felt much worse but i did sort of feel a little drained when i tried it for a few days. it might have been the pill, but who knows if it was the echinacea or one of the other ingredients.

how much zinc do you think you get each day? have you ever had your level tested? do you think the amount that is in your supps might have competition for absorption due to the blends?

zinc is anti-inflammatory and it helps you fight off infection. it helps calm excessive allergic-type sensitivities, and it helps with about a jillion other things too.

zinc is lower on average in ms patients than controls. and for ms women it's lower than ms men. the reduced levels are still inside the "normal range" though. zinc status is quite commonly sub-optimal across the board with a wide variety of symptoms depending on the individual.

my lab's 'normal range' says 11-18 if i remember correctly. my first test level came back with a result of 8. ms patients are generally well within the 11-18 range, even though they are lower than healthy controls, but they weren't vegans for 15 years probably! anyway i overdid my supplementing and didn't go back for followup for 3 months instead of what i was supposed to - 1 month. my second test came back 20. i backed off the supplements, but a bunch of probs returned. i've been taking zinc this week and my skin is calmed down a lot. i can really see the anti-inflammatory action on the outside so it says good things for what it's doing on the inside.

i don't think you should worry about trying the echinacea just for a couple days. but as the saying goes, i don't think you're likely to be deficient in echinacea.

try it out anyway, cuz it sucks to be frustrated and sick, but you could try working a zinc test into the coming blood work also. how much zinc is in your current daily multivitamin? you may need to get some zinc intake on its own, away from other nutritional influences. how much red meat do you generally eat? beef tenderloin anyone?

anyway ww sorry to hear you're having a rough go - hope you can get over the hump and feel great in the new year