heart trouble topic for jen (bumped for terry)

[jimmylegs]

jimmylegs wrote:
jen what kind of heart things..

-Irregular heartbeat which so far never happens around a physician. Probably benign, since they say these things usually are. Comes and goes. But has spiraled upward in terms of frequency and duration of symptoms since I first experienced it 9 years ago my first pg. Not associated with other symptoms (ie no shortness of breath or lightheadedness or anything).

-The thing where you fall asleep and wake up shortly thereafter with your heart pounding, thoughts of death ("impending doom") and an urgent need to pee. (even though you just went to the bathroom before bed, and this is just a few minutes later).

-The thing where if you lay on your left side the sensation of your heart pounding into the bed is just plain annoying. (No problem if sleep on right side.)

-Chest pains w/ intense exercise (running) that are probably soft tissue. Normal EKG after that one happened. So I don't really count this one, but kind of have it in the back of my head just in case.

FYI I'm my healthy weight, moderately active (it varies, but I'm a housewife, so at a minimum, I'm moving around doing housework, gardening, etc.), eat respectably, cholesterol & triglycerides and blood sugar are normal to better-than-normal.

History of heart problems in the family mostly only among people with lifestyle issues. My dad has a benign heart murmur or something though, I don't know what. (He is early sixties, very fit). Hmn, though thinking of it, his uncle did drop dead of heart thing in his mid-60's-70's, and he was a healthy fit guy.

Anyway, there you go. I know my heart isn't quite right, but don't really know that it has a problem. (kind of like: I'm nearsighted. No big deal, corrects with glasses. It can be not quite right without being a problem.) I'm just kind of watching to see what happens.

And yeah, I'll take suggestions. I'm sure you've got something to tell me Wink.

Jen.

hmm when you mention lifestyle issues, do you mean high stress? or bad diet?

i've heard that the heart doesn't have to work as hard when you lie on your right side... in your case it definitely sounds like your heart is having a time of it when it's "on the bottom"

i'm curious if you are on any special diet, ms or otherwise, whether you consume much caffeine in a day, and if you have a supplement regimen in place?

pregnancy, among other things, demands lots of nutrients, and with heart palpitations my magnesium alarm goes off... any possibility this is relevant in your case? my brother used to get palpitations and facial tics also, during his busy season at work (high stress from mega clients and drain from excess coffee). in the last year or two, cutting back on the coffee and taking magnesium (i think he takes a multimineral now actually) does the trick for his heart and tics. i have experienced them in the past, but not in a very long time.

HTH
JL

[sou]

Hi.

I am not a doctor. I am far from one.

The heart works on its own. You can't voluntarily stop it or make it beat faster. However, it responds to stimuli originating from the autonomous system. The sympathetic increases its rate, the parasympathetic reduces it.

Secondly, the heart works mainly by altering the balance of 3 ions: Na (sodium), K (potassium) and Ca (calcium). Na contracts the muscle, Ca keeps it contracted for a while and K relaxes it.

The fact that you have to pee makes me think that the kidneys have removed some of the above electrolytes from the bloodstream, along with water. If Na, K and Ca balance is disturbed, your heart is possibly the first organ to be affected.

Kidneys may also respond to aldosterone, which is a powerful steroid hormone produced at the adrenal cortex, that instructs them to remove potassium from the body. Corticosteroids mess up the adrenal gland and the kidneys by acting like another hormone, called antidiuretic, which causes water and electrolyte retention by reducing the amount of pee generated.

A good test would be one that evaluates the function of the kidneys and the balance of electrolytes in your body. Consult a good cardiologist about your problems.

Get well soon!

sou

[peekaboo]

I am not as nearly as smart as many of the people in thisms...truely sincere But those symptoms described above sound like panic attack material..I had suffered from Panic attacks earlier in my life. The only symptom that did not fit was pain during/after excersizing.

I learned through therapy that my panic attacks were a result of safety issues not being met. MS could very well tap into that category.

Regardless - I hope you find results and feel better asap

holly

[JenniferF]

Jimmylegs,

I'm not on any special diet. Just try to eat real food (no sodas, transfats, if it is pre-packaged I like made of ingredients in plain english), eat moderately, focus on getting relatively more fruits & vegetables, enough protein, more whole grains, nuts, etc since those are things I might otherwise forget. If I'm gaining weight I eat less, exercise more, if I'm losing weight, I eat more.

caffeine: has varied over time. I tried cutting it out last summer (and also alcohol) to see if it changed things, it really didn't. Sometimes I do drink too much coffee. Most days recently I drink 1-3 cups real coffee, and then decaf otherwise.

magnesium: sometimes I take it, sometimes I don't. I think it does help. I tried it for other muscle spasms (back) and though it didn't do anything for that, it did coincide with heart symptoms getting better, and then when I quit (because the back wasn't better) I got the heart thing again, and then when I restarted mg heart got better again. This winter when I quit mg (forgetfulness - I didn't take *anything* for like a month or two because I just, you know, forgot) heart got real bad. re-starting didn't seem to help, but now that I think about it, after enough time, everything is better again. So maybe it just needed more time. I need more data to be sure.

to refresh: when I remember, I take calcium, magnesium, a b-complex & fish oil. Right now I'm using up some older stuff I found at the back of the cabinets when I was trying to clean out, and then I will go back to the brand that you looked at before and approved, lol.

By 'lifestyle' issues, I mean seriously overweight and inactive, with an unhealthy diet. (As in, not just too much food, but lots of sugar, binge eating, trans fats, etc).

***

Sou, I'm afraid I'm not smart enough to follow you completely. But this: << A good test would be one that evaluates the function of the kidneys and the balance of electrolytes in your body. Consult a good cardiologist about your problems. >> I can understand. Thanks! Anything else you want to put into simple instructions (like, what is it I need to know about 'aldosterone', etc.) I'm all ears.

**

Does anyone know how one finds a good cardiologist?

Jen.

[sou]

Hi.

My skills in English are not the best, either...

What I wanted to say is:

The normal function of the heart relies on a good balance of electrolytes. (K, Na, Ca) The steps of a heartbeat are like these:

1. Na is absorbed, making the heart to contract. Then,
2. Ca is absorbed maintaining the contraction for several tenths of milliseconds and, finally,
3. K is absorbed and Na/Ca are pumped out of the cells, making the heart to relax.

So, the heart goes:

1-2-3-pause-1-2-3-pause-1-2-3-pause-... (a couple of billion cycles) ...-1-2-3-pause forever, rest in peace...

Kidneys regulate the amount of water and electrolytes throughout the body.

Aldosterone makes the kidneys discard potassium. Excessive potassium would prevent the heart from contracting (performing steps 1 and 2), leading to death by something as simple as eating a banana!

Additionally, another hormone, the antidiurhetic, instructs the kidneys to stop discarding water. Very useful when at the desert at 40 degrees Celsius. [Edit: "Not a surprise that it is produced by the adrenal glands, which produce many stress hormones for "difficult" situations." THIS IS WRONG. It is produced by the pituitary gland in the brain!]

Electrolytes can not be discarded without discarding water, too. Since you feel that you have to pee when your problem happens, I was wondering what exactly your kidneys have discarded. Could it be some useful electrolytes?

If you take steroids, it is very likely that they have messed up with your balance of stress hormones. The heart is very sensitive to them "by design". It is designed to elevate its rate when an angry bear is chasing you, for example. This sensitivity of the heart could very well cause it to respond to some kind of emotional stimuli. Sometimes, emotions that you don't really feel.

I hope that this is not confusing. Again, I am not a doctor, nor this description is accurate in any way. But I advise you to see a real doctor and have these in mind, so that you can direct your questions and understand what he is talking about.

Get well soon!

sou

[jimmylegs]

jen you should be able to get a referral to a cardiologist from your family doc.

diet sounds reasonable, so that's good. magnesium is hard to absorb though, so it's going to take a while especially if you drink up to 3 coffees per day. and when you get low in one thing, you tend to get low in others - when your magnesium is down, your potassium is probably down too.

the magnesium-aldosterone connection is a baddie:
1) magnesium deficiency elevates aldosterone
2) elevated aldosterone makes you pee out magnesium, and potassium, probably zinc too, etc, etc
3) rinse and repeat

sounds like you've noticed that magnesium does help with the heart. for the best effects, take the most soluble forms that you can find, ease off on the coffee while you're trying to build up your mag, and make sure you're getting some nice high-potassium foods, multiple servings per day, to make up for past losses while magnesium is down. it's a waste of time to supplement potassium. the pills tend to be a tiny fraction of what you need in a day.

zinc's another important nutrient for adrenal health and all kinds of other aspects of ms. optimal zinc in healthy controls is 18.2 mumol/L.

i didn't see vitamin d3 in your regimen jen - have you ever had your level tested? low vitamin d3 could be part of your pain issue for sure.

anyway here's some light reading ;)
JL

Am J Med. 1975 Jun;58(6):837-46. Magnesium deficiency and cardiac disorders.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/806229

Science, 11 April 1980. Magnesium deficiency produces spasms of coronary arteries: relationship to etiology of sudden death ischemic heart disease (in vitro study)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7361117

January 2000, 247:1 Hypomagnesemia in heart failure with ventricular arrhythmias. Beneficial effects of magnesium supplementation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10672134

J Am Soc Nephrol 18: 2649-2652, 2007. Mechanism of Hypokalemia in Magnesium Deficiency. ...increase in distal sodium delivery or elevated aldosterone levels may be required for exacerbating potassium wasting in magnesium deficiency.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17804670

and sure enough...
J Lab Clin Med 1993. Effects of magnesium on the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system in human subjects
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3445509
magnesium stimulates renin release through the elevation of prostaglandins and suppresses aldosterone production through the intracellular calcium mobilization.

[JenniferF]

Sou -- thanks. I think just reading it twice said two ways helps. I'm not sure quite what do about it, but that's why we have Jimmylegs . . .

JL - thanks.

re: D3 - I don't think I have had those levels tested. The calcium supplement I take contains D something [oh, hey, it says "D3". that's handy, eh.], and I also make a point of being out in the sun everyday, for this reason. Actually started that as a way to ward off depression, but the reading here makes me more serious about it.

Anyway, thanks again for your help both of you. Lots to think about.

****

And now to hijack myself:

Funny story: Pain is not really a problem for me. Has been in the past, but I've dealt with the underlying cause, and now everything is on a equilibrium where pain does it's normal of job of saying 'something is not right' and I go fix it and there we are.

But it's really funny, because people (physicians especially) are convinced I must have a significant pain problem. I don't know why. It is very funny.

I think maybe people just aren't mentally ready for, "Well, there's something wrong with my leg . . . it doesn't hurt enough". LOL.

(So yeah: that muscle spasm in my back? It doesn't hurt. You know that you aren't supposed to feel this palpable knot in your muscle that persists for months on end . . . but it doesn't hurt. Everyone should be so lucky.)

***

Have a great week and thank you both for your help.

Jen.

[jimmylegs]

more than welcom jen. let us know if you decide to get your d3 tested. what latitude do you live at by the way, if you don't mind my asking?

lol i fell into the 'that must hurt' trap! i have spastic painless muscles sometimes too but it does tend to resolve with enough magnesium input - as discussed, your absorption could be suboptimal for a variety of reasons.. but at least it seems to be helping the heart out!

another couple tidbits:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/m ... magnesium/
One study in adolescent boys found that magnesium absorption was lower when protein intake was less than 30 grams/day, and higher protein intakes (93 grams/day vs. 43 grams/day) were associated with improved magnesium absorption in adolescents (5).

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... tid=295901
Magnesium relaxes arterial smooth muscle by decreasing intracellular Ca2+ without changing intracellular Mg2+.

u have a great week too happy thinking!

JL

[JenniferF]

Ooh, more reading! Thanks.

Heck if I know what latitude I live at. Just looked at the globe. As the minivan flies, I'm about six hours north of the 30th parallel. Depending, of course, on whether I stop for lunch ; - ).

Jen.

[mommasan]

Just to throw something else into the mix. Both my husband and I have moderate mitral valve regurgitation. I also have tricuspid valve regurgitation. We have the symptoms you write about. Neither one of us has any CAD- we've both had thallium stress tests- mine was chemically induced, or course.

Magnesium does help. As does L-acetyl carnitine and coenzyme Q-10. I have to take both the Q-10 and carnitine. If I miss one or the other the rapid and irregular heartbeat gets really annoying. My husband is most bothered by it when he lays down to sleep- not so much when he is jogging or doing something active. He also pees all night long- no prostate trouble, either. He takes magnesium- 600 mg., calcium 1200 mg and a multi with 15 mg. or zinc and the Q-10.

You should get to a cardiologist to help figure this out.

[jimmylegs]

Okay well at least at that latitude i would think the sun is strong for enough of the year that you can make vit d3 in your skin..
i imagine you've read all the details about d3 and sunscreen, weather, timing, covering, coloring, and age that all affect our skin's production of d3?

[jimmylegs]

terry did end up checking this out at all?

[Terry]

JL,
I read it as it was being posted and I glanced through it again. I take mag, zinc, D, E, multi, calcium, Bcomplex- and occasionally I throw in other stuff.
I haven't been doing the evening mag without the D. I guess I should start that. Did I miss anything else?

[jimmylegs]

terry! i would think, yes, do go for the separate magnesium at bedtime. what are your daily amounts of those supps? and how's your iron situation? had it tested lately?
JL

[Terry]

JL,

I almost never take any of these on the weekends. I forget. I have finally made it a part of my work-week mornings though.
Iron free multi
B-Complex 100
E 400IU
Cal-Mag (1000 mg cal/ 500 mg Mag oxide
Zinc 50 mg
D 2000 IU
1 aspirin

Fish Oil 1000 mg- but not every day

I have on hand but have not been using-
mag 300mg
alpha lipolic acid 100mg
mineral complex
chelated iron 25 mg iron/ 45mg calcium
probiotic
acidophilus
D5,000 IU
B-12

I did take the mag300mg last night and tonight, but did not before that.

I have not had bloodwork since spring of 2006 I think.

Whatcha think?