CCSVI MS or MS CCSVI?

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:11 am

I know that there has been conversation here about what comes first, CCSVI or MS? But I'd like to begin own discussion about this - cause this might be very hot topic.. or already is. Maybe neurology likes to see that CCSVI is just ms consequence and vascular experts say vise versa.

How many reasons can you say, that CCSVI leads to MS? I have some idea about the CCSVI to MS process, but some of you (Cheer, Marie, etc) could give more evidence to this? Or evidence that Ms leads to CCSVI?

fernando · Post by **fernando** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:16 am

In the Bologna conference Dr Lee explained the origin of the stenosis as something congenital. So, at least for Dr. Lee, stenosis come first.

cheerleader · Post by **cheerleader** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:29 am

There is no known evidence or research showing that the immune system errantly attacking myelin could create anything like CCSVI.
In fact, every bit of research and science in vascular disorders (like CVI) shows that a blockage of the vein begins the cascade of inflammation, plasma deposition, demyelination and tissue death....which then activates the immune system.
CCSVI can begin the MS process. Not the other way around.
cheer

IHateMS · Post by **IHateMS** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:33 am

maybe too simplistic.... but more and more to me, it is not which comes first ....but that MS Is CCSVI.

radeck · Post by **radeck** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:55 am

CCSVI might lead to MS (i.e. auto-immune issues). However this would lead to the question: where does CCSVI come from? There seems to be some evidence that it's congenital, but infections seem to also play a role. Dr. Dake says he can imagine that lymph inflammations in the neck (I suppose tonsils) can affect surrounding tissue as far as the jugular veins and make the stenosis worse. How much congenital versus infection matters is not clear at least to me, and what other factors might matter. There don't seem to be signs of auto-immune attacks against the vein walls though. It also isn't known yet as far as I know why veins of patients re-collapse and what can be done to prevent it (even stents don't seems to be a guarantee). Cheers thread about Frohman's work tries to tackle that question. We also don't know why veins throughout MS patients brains are missing by 40%, though I believe there's some evidence that this degeneration is caused by hypoxia (lack of oxygen). It would be good to hear from Zamboni&Salvi whether there is some re-building of cerebral venous structure in those patients that received the liberation procedure. cheer, do you have information on this? It would also be good to see the actual fraction of patients that had re-collapsed veins (not just the fraction of those that had relapses, and were then found to have re-stenosis).

Long answer, with lots of new questions...sorry...

Radeck

CureOrBust · Post by **CureOrBust** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:51 pm

At this stage, I have to go with "occums razor". I have yet to see or even hear of a medical paper that could imply a neurological condition such as MS would or could cause CCSVI. Are there any? I know there are theories, but there are published articles (on cows) where non laminar flow causes BBB (or vessel) integrity issues.

DIM · Post by **DIM** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:21 pm

radeck wrote:We also don't know why veins throughout MS patients brains are missing by 40%, though I believe there's some evidence that this degeneration is caused by hypoxia (lack of oxygen). It would be good to hear from Zamboni&Salvi whether there is some re-building of cerebral venous structure in those patients that received the liberation procedure. cheer, do you have information on this? It would also be good to see the actual fraction of patients that had re-collapsed veins (not just the fraction of those that had relapses, and were then found to have re-stenosis).

Long answer, with lots of new questions...sorry...

Radeck

Is this the reason why LDN works so well on some MS patients (it causes angiogenesis) or not along with it's immunomodulator and endorphin boost effect?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11877704
<shortened url>

cheerleader · Post by **cheerleader** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:07 am

Hi DIM!
I've missed you!
Hope your wife is well.
Yes, that is probably why LDN helps so many-
Jeff was on his endothelial health program for almost 2 years.
But nothing would have healed his closed jugulars
except for the stenting.
They were so closed down, like dry creeks,
and now they are rushing rivers-
cheer

DIM · Post by **DIM** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:54 am

Hi Cheer
I've missed you too, glad you have such progress with your husband, we are both well and wife is in perfect condition, healthy and strong, probably due to our good regimen, LDN, food and exercise not to mention the daily sun exposure!
But I have lost the thread, a friend asked me to describe the whole CCSVI procedure in order to have an MRV etc and can't help him, is there a thread that refers to this?